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Sharps Carbine shooting rest

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Rfp10000

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I’m looking for advice on a shooting rest for a sharps carbine.

I’ve been using a front rest only and trying to sight the gun. I’m at a point where I’d like a really stable rest but I’m not sure what I see would allow for the lever action needed to load a cartridge without screwing things up.
I saw this … Caldwell Lead Sled 3 Rifle Shooting Rest
 
Well, you could add a rear bag to the front rest. But unless your ultimate goal is bench rest shooting, and you have it sighted in to something close for what you want, then you shouldn't be going in the direction of something like a Lead Sled, but more towards adjusting it for the shooting position you'll actually be using.

I use bags (front, or front and rear) to determine rough point of impact and (mostly) size of group. But for my BP shooting goals, I then shift to shooting from the shoulder without bag or bench rest support -- since that's how the rifle will be shot. For my .22 LR "precision shooting" I will continue to use at least a front bag/rest -- because, again, that's how I'll be shooting.

The issue here is that "sighting the gun" isn't an absolute. It's about sighting the gun for your particular purpose and for how you'll be holding the gun as you're using it. You could sight it in wonderfully with a Lead Sled, and then not be close to what you want when shooting it shoulder-mounted in standing position.
 
thanks for your comments , I understand.

I’m thinking of the lead sled to give the gun a solid foundation for final adjustment to the sight and am wondering if while it’s in the shooting rest is it possible I’d be able to lower the lever to reload the chamber or does it matter for sighting purposes if I have to remove the gun from the rest every time I need to drop the lever to reload . I’m trying to decide about buying the sled that I linked in my first post.

The lever drops about 4” below it’s normal position to reload .and a couple inches below the butt stock.
 
You are not shooting a benchrest rifle.
No matter how hard you try you will never return the rifle to the exact same position like you can with a dedicated benchrest setup and rest tailored to the rifle (Or vice versa)

With a good front rest and rear bag or the lead sled you should TRY and return to the exact same position but there will always be minor differences in how you shoulder, grip, cheek weld etc. etc.

Get a good rest and rear bag or the lead sled whichever you will use the most for this gun and the future, then work on YOUR consistency which is the only way you will shoot those teeny tiny groups. Helps to have young eyes as well!
 
Young eyes are out ! I do have a set of Caldwell bags but for some reason they don’t feel right . I have tried a front rest with adjustable elevation and a rear bag but that also doesn’t feel right so I just use the front adjustable rest which is ok for shooting but I won’t file the front sight down anymore because while the front is stable when sitting on the rest , the butt end is against my shoulder and obviously changes position every time I get up & take the gun off the rest to reload.
I am just seeing what I can learn BEFORE purchasing anything new… primarily I wanted to know if I have to take the Sharps off the stand to drop the lever to reload. My sense is that if I have to , I might not buy it and look to change how I’m using the stuff I have on hand.
I guess I’m looking to hear from someone who has both a Sharps and a lead sled particularly the one I linked to above.
 
I don't have a Sharps, so here are some "generic" remarks ...

I have Caldwell's "DeadShot" front and rear bags, and their Tackdriver bag. For BP sighting in, I often initially use the Tackdriver because it's easier and I find it hard to set up the front/rear combo with a BP rifle's butt stock and its significant drop. But then I transition to the DeadShot pair and shoot (of course) with left hand resting on the bag and the fore stock resting in the left hand. Then I transition to a standard match shooting position. I also have their "The Rock" (mechanical/adjustable) shooting rest.

With the DeadShot bags and Tackdriver, I of course have to "shim" them to get them to the perfect height for me. So if I use them at a range and off a bench I haven't used before, I take along some pieces of 2" stock (usually 2x6) and some 3/4" stock and some other stuff. I also make little wooden bag supports out of Lowes-bought poplar that I build in adjustable sides to so I don't need all the shimming. Of course I don't do that now because I can't get any ammunition and am shooting only BP at the moment, and so I don't use them in matches at all. For rimfire matches off the bench, the Tackdriver is more convenient to take because it's only one bag and I don't really benefit from a rear with it. For centerfire, I'd probably use the DeadShot pair as I have in the past. But typically centerfire matches aren't off the bench -- unless they're real bench rest matches.

I never use The Rock, and never have used it much. I can imagine using it (with a rear bag) if I got into bench rest shooting. But I think that pretty quickly I'd abandon it in those circumstances and probably make my own. Mine is basically new and unblemished. 😂 😂 I should ship it to my son.

The Lead Sled, in my opinion, is WAY overkill for anything most people would want to do -- and certainly for a BP rifle with iron sights. But it seems like the OP lusts for one, and in that case he should have it. :) We've all been there, and it's a nice hunk of iron (even better in that regard than The Rock!) to haul around.
 
Thanks a lot for the comments . You answered my question about having to remove it from the stand to load a single shot lever rifle. That was what I was wondering . As the second gentleman implied I am not sure that is enough to keep me from buying it 😀… I’ve been looking at it for quite a while & I know it’s probably overkill for me but I bought a chrono and a number of things I don’t really use or at least not that much.

Your info about shimming up the bags with 2” boards etc and once finding the right height , putting sides on the board to hold the bags in place seems like something I will try. I see this done at the range.
Thanks again for some good thoughts .
 
I bought a chrono and a number of things I don’t really use or at least not that much.
Now a chrono is HUGE fun to play with! I've never used mine with a BP gun, and I'm not sure I'll see the need to with a muzzle loader (close enough is good enough?), but I used to use it very intently when I was reloading various smokeless cartridges.
 
Unlike many on this thread, I DO have a 1863 Sharps carbine, in fact I have two. When setting one up and doing load development, I strongly recommend against using a "Lead Sled" or rear bags. The reason, recoil impulse and how the gun behaves under recoil is altered by using a rear bag or sled. Point of Impact will change when you go to shoot offhand, guaranteed. Best method I've found is to put your hands on the gun as you would naturally. Sit as upright as possible just as you would for offhand. Rest the back of your forward hand on a sandbag.

Does it work? You tell me-
IMG_20190111_155832.jpg
 
I would love to shoot that group. I’m using Hahn tubes with Rapine bullets & 40 grains of Swiss 2F (45.5 grains by weight). I’ll try that method using my Caldwell front bag. What sights are you using ?
 
I would love to shoot that group. I’m using Hahn tubes with Rapine bullets & 40 grains of Swiss 2F (45.5 grains by weight). I’ll try that method using my Caldwell front bag. What sights are you using ?

Both my Sharps have the Larry Flees mod and I also had Larry install a set of Rich Cross target sights. The military issue sights are really tough to shoot accurately.
 
... recoil impulse and how the gun behaves under recoil is altered by using a rear bag or sled. Point of Impact will change when you go to shoot offhand, guaranteed. Best method I've found is to put your hands on the gun as you would naturally. Sit as upright as possible just as you would for offhand. Rest the back of your forward hand on a sandbag.
This -- exactly.
 
Only thing the "Lead Sled" is good at is cracking stocks, IMHO. There is no transfer of POI from a lead sled to the POI of real world shooting, so why do it? It's a muzzleloader not a rail gun!
 
There are several good videos on Youtube where fellas with 1863 Sharps hit targets WAAAAAY downrange with shooting sticks and a lawn chair. I think the common element is figuring out how YOU can shoot it consistently, not how the gun shoots. BTW, the carbine is a good gun but the longer, heavier infantry rifle will give better accuracy for most shooters.
 
I would love to shoot that group. I’m using Hahn tubes with Rapine bullets & 40 grains of Swiss 2F (45.5 grains by weight). I’ll try that method using my Caldwell front bag. What sights are you using ?
Have you tried Moose version of the Bagdon bullet. I love it. I also shoot one of the Brooks bullet. I’m shooting 38 and 42 gr of 2ffg goex. Will be working up a load this spring w/ schuetzen
 
Unlike many on this thread, I DO have a 1863 Sharps carbine, in fact I have two. When setting one up and doing load development, I strongly recommend against using a "Lead Sled" or rear bags. The reason, recoil impulse and how the gun behaves under recoil is altered by using a rear bag or sled. Point of Impact will change when you go to shoot offhand, guaranteed. Best method I've found is to put your hands on the gun as you would naturally. Sit as upright as possible just as you would for offhand. Rest the back of your forward hand on a sandbag.
This is absolutely true : with a 1859/63 Sharps all is in the cartridge (paper or flax). The bench is in second importance : I've no bench, no bag, just a piece of wood at the front side...
The position during the adjustments must be closer of the standing position...
15_balles_50m.png
 
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I think the common element is figuring out how YOU can shoot it consistently, not how the gun shoots.
Yes -- which works as long as you have confidence that the gun shoots within the ballpark of where it should and where reasonable adjustments can be made if necessary. This means that the sights and gun are functioning uniformly and putting the projectile sufficiently close to where it needs to be. That "preliminary" step is necessary whenever you put a new sight or sights on the gun, or maybe when you get a new gun whose "sight history" you don't know and may suspect. That's where an initial step of shooting from a solid rest (correctly) can be critical. And then you move on.

This also really addresses the situation where you're using iron sights. With glass, it's whole different thing.
 
I've got a Pedersoli 1859 Sharps (percussion) that I have been struggling to get to perform well since 2016.

I have come to believe that with an of the "Christmas tree" type of bullets, with 3 progressively larger driving bands, that the first driving band should fit in the bore. That is, if you stick the bullet in your muzzle pointy-end-first, the bullet should stop on the second driving band, with the first band going down the bore.

With my Pedersoli 1859, no commercially available Christmas tree bullet I have tried does this. Not even the Pedersoli mold. I have tried several variations of Christmas Tree bullet, including a Rapine copy (made by Lee as a custom mold someone sold on ebay), The Pedersoli version, and a "Bobtail" custom bullet. With all of them, the front driving band is too large to fit into the bore of my Pedersoli Sharps.

Why does this matter?

As I was slow to understand, the guys that shoot cartridge Sharps guns use bullets, either "naked" or paper-patched, that slide into the bore when the cartridge is chambered. Some of these bullets are only barely held by the case mouth by perhaps 1/8" of bullet or so. The remainder - a couple of inches or so - slides into the bore like a torpedo going into a torpedo tube in a submarine. These bullets do not engage the rifling on firing like a usual modern firearm. They are not a couple of thousands over groove diameter like with most modern firearms. They slide into the bore. What I believe this does is provide very close coaxiality between the bullet and the bore. Upon firing, these long bullets collapse along their length, which makes them swell up in diameter and thus take up the rifling.

I believe the Christmas Tree Sharps bullets were intended to do the same thing. I have been loaned several original Sharps bullets of different designs (some are Christmas tree, some are standard "ogive" bullets that have a curious small and around the ogive which, now not surprisingly, fits the bore). With all of them but one, the front driving band fits in the bore. I believe the one that does not would if I forced it, but I do not wan to damage the patina on the bullet.

When I was doing load workups for my Smith carbine, I tested the usual hard black plastic tubes and the translucent soft red rubber tubes made by Yore (Yore Supply - Rubber Smith Tubes). I really liked the Yore tubes for two reasons. First, being flexible, it was easy to get the bullets into the case mouths. Second, being translucent it was easy to see if there was powder in the tube and how close to full you were when the bullet was inserted.

Unfortunately, during load workups using both the hard black plastic and the Yore tubes, I discovered that I got better accuracy with the hard black tubes. I believe that this again is due to coaxiality. With the red rubber tubes, it was trivial to end up with bullets that were "cock-eyed" in the case mouth. You had to deliberately eyeball them to set them straight in the tube. And of course any kind of handling while plucking them out of your cartridge box and/or loading could knock the bullet crooked. But with the hard black plastic tubes, the bullets are very tightly and rigidly held by the case, enforcing coaxiality with the case. Since the cases tend to fit tightly in the Smith chamber, I believe this results in good bullet-to-bore coaxiality and this accounts for the increased precision on target with the black tubes vs. the red ones.

I now believe this can be applied to the Sharps also. It has been a maddening journey, because I have done many load workups over the years with this gun with different bullets, and often come home from the exercise excited because I finally found "the best load" for a bullet. Only to find later that it must have been a fluke because I was no longer getting consistent results.

I now think that part of the problem is lack of consistent coaxiality on loading with non-bore-riding bullets. The paper cartridge of combustible Sharps cartridges must be necessarily smaller than the chamber or you won't get many shots off before the cartridge won't fit and you will crumble it if you try and force it. What this means is that when you push a non-bore-riding bullet/cartridge into the Sharps chamber, the tail end of the cartridge will naturally settle to the floor of the chamber due to gravity. This may tend to cock the bullet skywards slightly, making it non-concentric with the bore. Depending on how dirty your chamber is, how much lube is on your bullet, and how firmly you push it into the chamber on loading, you could get different degrees of coaxial alignment each time you shoot a non-bore-riding bullet.

By having a bullet that at least partially bore-rides, I think this helps get the bullet concentric in the bore. It's never going to be as sure a thing as with the cartridge Sharps guns, where you have an inch or more of bullet surface riding in the bore, but I think it helps.

Larry Flees (who does fantastic work on Sharps guns, eliminating their gas leak problems at the breech), has designed a Christmas tree bullet that has a front driving band that will bore ride in the Pedersoli Sharps. While I have not had time to extensively test it, my initial load workup has provided some of the tightest sub-one-inch groups at 50 yards off a bench I have ever gotten. Targets here:



Both 42 grains of 3F Goex and 48 grains of same gave <1" groups at 50 yards off a bench.

The Flees bullet has a heel designed to accept the Charlie Hahn cardboard tubes. These have the advantage of shattering/disintegrating very completely upon firing but also are quite rigid, which makes for a very rigid and consistent complete cartridge. Many times on inserting and pushing home a home-made rolled-paper cartridge I can feel the tube buckle/crinkle when pushed home into the chamber. I'm sure this results in random and strange bore alignment for the bullet, especially if not a bore-rider. But the Hahn tubes are very rigid and so never do this. I think they also contribute to a more consistent chambering of the bullet and cartridge.

I haven't had the time to use this new bullet and cartridge in competition to confirm that it is the "magic bullet", but I think it is. I think having a bore-riding bullet is a way to get great accuracy out of a Sharps.

Steve
 
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