Siler lock kit????

[BLAHMAN]

When making a Siler lock from a kit, how does one get the frizzen to make close contact with the pan? I use inletting black, files and take time to make a good fit, then when I drill the hole for the screw and assemble the dang thing I have a very large gap. This is frustrating, but my only power tool is a drill press. I've tried using epoxy and clamps to get the thing done, drill the holes, tap the thread and then when I screw it together it looks like SH****T! Any suggestions before I yank out every last thread of my hair and look like Kojack?

PS: This sucks! :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse:

 

[Bushwhacker]

I've assembled many Siler locks, but I have a machine shop with all the proper equiptment. First of all I remove all rough edges feom the castings to make a good fit. Use a tiny C-clamp or vice grips to hold the frizzen in place. Make sure that you have a good machinists vice to hold all parts square. Now...use a drill for the tap size and drill thru the lock and frizzen. Make sure drill is sharp and it runs true.Next you drill down thru the lock and frizzen with a drill slightly undersize of the frizzen screw diameter, stoping at the point where it will be threaded. Use a reamer anout .001 dia. larger and ream out lock down to the area that will be threaded. Now you're ready to thread the hole. Remove all burs. Always use a cutting lubricant when drilling and tapping. Hope this helps
Bushwhacker
Walk softly and carry a smoothbore :redthumb:

 

[BLAHMAN]

Thanks Bushwacker, but I aint got all that stuff, guess I'll just pitch it.

 

[flaming canvas]

Well pitch it my way and let me see if I can salvage anything.

Roger

 

[Zonie]

Before you pitch it, do you have any use for a "Converted Flintlock"?
You know, a lock that exactly duplicates a flintlock which has been converted to precussion.
It will have the extra frizzen spring holes and everything you need to have except for two parts.

Send away to TOTW or DIXIE and buy a precussion hammmer and a 1/2 inch dia drum.
File off the pan until it is about flush with the outside of the lockplate.
When you install this with a drum, you will have to grind away a lot of what remains of the pan to get a good close fit with the drum to support it and your done!

If you want to build a Convertable rifle, you can get another flintlock kit and have at it again or just buy a finished one.
Then install your "converted lock & drum" for a precussion that looks just exactly like a original.

You also will end up with a spare cock, jaw and jaw screw in case you ever need one. ::

 

[BLAHMAN]

Well, after I setled down, I finished up what best I could, but I'm still NOT satisisfied with my quality of work. I'm going to have to devise a clamp to hold that little rotten frizzen tight when I drill it. I can do everything else just fine, but when it comes to getting a near perfect fit of frizzen to pan.....well....I'm really not happy. :no: :no: :no:

 

[Terry Zboril]

Blahman, Don't go Kojak yet.
If you done went and wallered out the hole in the frizzen toe too big, then the frizzen spring WILL push the frizzen back UP, regardless how good you clamp it while drilling.
I do final fit after assembling with the frizzen bolt IN.

If the gap is small. (say a piece of paper), you can still salvage the job with the inletting black, and filing the pan face ( which is unhardened), down ,(only on the contact points), to a better fit.

I you were smart, and haven't hardened the frizzen yet, then you can work on BOTH mating surfaces with the file, and get acceptable results. (a smooth cut warding file is good for this).

Don't get discouraged, as a true "waterproof" fit is virtually impossible anyway, at least for me. It will still fire!

The main difficulty with drilling the Siler kits is keeping the plate "level", and "plumb" at the same time.(I finally built a small simple wooden jig, for the frizzen drilling, that helps a lot.)

Regards,
Terry

 

[BLAHMAN]

Blahman, Don't go Kojak yet.
If you done went and wallered out the hole in the frizzen toe too big, then the frizzen spring WILL push the frizzen back UP, regardless how good you clamp it while drilling.
I do final fit after assembling with the frizzen bolt IN.

If the gap is small. (say a piece of paper), you can still salvage the job with the inletting black, and filing the pan face ( which is unhardened), down ,(only on the contact points), to a better fit.

I you were smart, and haven't hardened the frizzen yet, then you can work on BOTH mating surfaces with the file, and get acceptable results. (a smooth cut warding file is good for this).

Don't get discouraged, as a true "waterproof" fit is virtually impossible anyway, at least for me. It will still fire!

The main difficulty with drilling the Siler kits is keeping the plate "level", and "plumb" at the same time.(I finally built a small simple wooden jig, for the frizzen drilling, that helps a lot.)

Regards,
Terry

Ok Terry, I understand all that, but here's what I don't understand. If you do waller out the frizzen yoe hole just a bit, and the spring pushes up on the frizzen allowing more light to show through then how is eliminating surface contacts on pan and frizzen going to allow the frizzen to sit down closer to the pan?
My mind tells me that the screw holding the frizzen to the lock is stationary and does not move up, down or sideways. If the frizzen spring puts TOO much pressure via an upward force then my alternative should be to reduce the tension on the spring to allowing the spring to hold the frizzen shut with out excess pressure. That's what my mind tels me.
If I file the surfaces I am taking metal off from the high spots. I filed the bottom of the frizzen flat (as best I could. I did this by securing the file in a vise, then pushing , slowly, the frizzen over this.) Then I did the same with the pan. When I place inletting black on the frizzen for fit and clamp the pan and frizzen together I get a real good tight fit. Then when I drill the hole for the screw (following instructions) I come to find that my fit is less with the screw running through it. I wonder if I should file a bit off of the screw diameter for better results. I don't truly know.
Keep in mind, I only own a drill press....no other power tolls with exception of a drill. That is my hair pulling dilema...any other tips or suggestions out there????

 

[Terry Zboril]

Blah,
It is the HOLE in the frizzen toe that is the culprit, if too large.
PM me,.
Terry

 

[BLAHMAN]

Blah,
It is the HOLE in the frizzen toe that is the culprit, if too large.
PM me,.
Terry

Aha, then I must assume that the hole, if not perfect, will allow for the slop in fit? In other words the culprit could be the way I set up the work piece, the drill press (it's an old one and may have some wobble), the drill bit itself or the operator (me). I've tested the lock to see if it will hold priming powder and see if any will dribble out...this it does not do, I just wish I could do a better job so that one day I can say: "Not bad for a one-eyed fat guy! (Now if I could just open that other eye.)"

 

[alejohns]

Perhaps a bit late, but you might check out Gunsmithing Tips and Projects, which is a compilation of articles from Rifle magazine. There is an excellent article written by John Bivins that takes you through the steps of building a Siler lock from a kit. I read this article years ago and it's how I now build my locks. If you go this route you'll need access to a small lathe and a good drill press, but these should be available if you assemble the Siler kits anyway.

 

[BLAHMAN]

If you go this route you'll need access to a small lathe and a good drill press, but these should be available if you assemble the Siler kits anyway. [/quote]

How about one of those small inexpensive bench lathes that Grizzly tool has, would that work or is that to cheaply made? And where do I find those articles, any idea?

 

And where do I find those articles, any idea?

Gunsmithing Tips & Projects should be what you're looking for.

 

[rich pierce]

I solder the frizzen to the pan. Tin both surfaces then sweat it on there. Do your drilling and reaming etc then re-heat to take it apart. Get the frizzen hot and smack it on the workbench- the solder will fly off. Same for the pan. Wear safety glasses.

I will tell you that from personal experience, 10 years from now the fit will not be good no matter how well you do it now. The pan gets little burs and pits and the frizzen does not sit down as it once did. I had a L&R Durs Egg lock that I built so well I could prime the pan, close it, stick my thumb over the "hole", dunk it in a bucket of water, pull it out, and "whhoosh" she'd go when I'd fire it. Today I see plenty o light between the surfaces.

 

[BLAHMAN]

And where do I find those articles, any idea?

Gunsmithing Tips & Projects should be what you're looking for.

Thanks for the info!!!! :redthumb: :redthumb:

 

[alejohns]

Yes one of the 7 x 12 import lathes would work for this purpose and be quite useful for other things as well. The 7" lathes are well supported with tooling, though it's a bit more expensive than what you pay for the larger, more common stuff. There are also cults of people on line that worship the little 7" and you would have plenty of support from these folks. You might consider the little 7" lathes to be kits in their own right, as you will doubtless end up doing some cleaning and polishing, but when your done you should have a good little setup. Don't overlook the thought that you can also do horizontal milling in these lathes with an attachment. This is quite useful for small part manufacture and the mill attachment can be made. I had a Sherline lathe until just recently and ended up selling it, when I decided to move up to a 12" lathe. Sherlines are nice, and they probably are more accurate than the imports, but they are poorly setup for some of the things I want to do with a lathe. You have to buy a screwcutting attachment for it, and they don't work under power, that screwcutting operation is done by hand after completely dismanteling the lathe. I prefer the imports which are more conventional in as much as the screwcutting is accomplished with power, and though you still have to change gears it's a lot less work than it is with the Sherline. The Sherline also won't let you run collets which are big enough to do a lot of work, mainly because the hole through the headstock is too small. The spindle bore is much larger on the import 7" lathes and for that purpose it is more suited to gun work and would even be possible to do some barrel work. The one possible advanatage to the sherline was that you could mount a vertical milling attachment which worked as a high precision drill press, this was nice, but it didn't make up for the rest of the shortcomings. I'll probably end up buying one of the 7" lathes somewhere down the road, since I've found that there are some tasks that are far easier to to on the tiny lathes. If I were you I'd pick up one of these 7" lathes, you can buy them for less than $300 if you shop around, if your serious about this hobby it's some of the best money you can spend. Check out www.micromark.com, they have a good assortment of tooling for their lathes which should interchange with most of the import 7" lathes on the market.

 

[BLAHMAN]

Alex, thanks for the post and the info...I checked out the details.

 

[Terry Zboril]

Blah,
Think of the frizzen as a See-Saw, with the screw hole as the fulcrum.
The frizzen spring pushing UP on the frizzen toe pushes the frizzen flat DOWN, to contact the pan.

An over large hole in the toe will allow the frizzen to effectively "rise", from it's previous perfect pan mating, especially near the screw.
Please do not file the screw to a smaller diameter, as you will only make it worse.

I have built 20+ Siler kits with nothing more than a drill press. I do however, have a wooden jig to hold the clamped frizzen level and plumb, and I use REAMERS to finish the critical frizzen screw hole to only .001 oversize to the actual screw.

I also use REAMERS to finish the holes thru both the SEAR and the TUMBLER HOLE in the plate to the same tolerances.

No creep that way, on the trigger pull.
Hope this didn't confuse,
and Regards,
Terry

 

[BLAHMAN]

Thanks Terry, where can I get reamers to accomplish this task? I've been putting some thought into a fixture to hold the frizzen/pan assembly, never thought of using wood, though I guess you could. Can you describe your jig to me?

 

[alejohns]

I built a couple of Siler kits with just the drill press follwing the instructions in the Siler kits. The problem with this method is that the axels on the cast tumblers can be out of round as cast, filing them in the drill press just makes this worse, you really need to use a lathe, or, if your making the tumbler from a blank, a tumbler mill, to keep things concentric at this stage. I know lot's of kits have been built with nothing but a drill press, but it isn't ideal, if you want a world class lock than you need to start things off right. These days a lathe is a relatively small investment and the things you can do with it will add a level of versatility to your gunshop not matched by many other tools.

Alex