smoothbore vs. fowler?

[Geraldo]

Gentlemen, this confusion could never happen in France. The Commission Générale de Terminologie et de Néologie would have a distinctly French word for each of these variations. So the problem isn't rifling or lack of it, it's the *******ized language we use.

 

[Ike Godsey]

isn't a "smoothie" something to drink? :surrender:

 

[Tommy Bruce]

Hey Rich JD, I probably can come up with some extra pearls. It sounds like you all can use some here. I would join in but my opinion would be an exercise in futility not to mention being totally redundant. :bow: :v
Tom Patton

Tom, I'll listen to whatever you have to say. Pm me if you'd like. Your posts are always contain a wealth of information and I learn something new all the time. Sometimes the longer I study history, and am involved in the reenacting community I realize how little I actually know.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Ah, but Ike has a point. He's talking about generic terms that people use.

I said that I deal with this every day. People ask me about my "fowlers" when in my mind I don't make fowlers, I make trade guns. At gun shows people ask me if they can handle my rifles. They are in fact smooth bored. Can't argue with or educate everyone all the time so I let it go. I let it go on this forum too. .. well most of the time, I still get a grating feeling when I see the term smoothie. Sort of like some others on here when they see the term canoe gun.

Agreed!!
Smoothie, Remmie, Shottie, pouchie, fowler, capper, flinter,

A bit foppish for my tastes.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Gentlemen, this confusion could never happen in France. The Commission Générale de Terminologie et de Néologie would have a distinctly French word for each of these variations. So the problem isn't rifling or lack of it, it's the *******ized language we use.

In the U.S. think we have too much bureaucracy, but we forget that our brothers in Europe invented it.

I'm kinda glad we don't have one that manages our language yet. But then maybe you don't have to "Press one for French". :haha: :haha: :haha:

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Lonegun1894]

I also think Ike has the right idea. I have lived in a few countries, and each one has the proper names, and several "slang" names for certain items, including guns. Even if we could find a records written within days of each other in different colonies, I am convinced that the names used for the same guns would have had some variation. I am not saying this to be argumentative, just stating what I have seen. Things are this way today, and I am sure this is NOT a new development. For example, if I say the word "shotgun", am I talking about a turkey gun, a short "riot gun", a duck gun, a dove gun, a slug gun, a trap and skeet gun, etc? They are all the same basic gun, but just different versions of them. As long as we don't mind clarifying what we mean when someone asks, I don't see a problem with using different terms for different guns, especially when we have all been shown quotes from period documents showing that the vast majority of these names are correct. The way I see it, just to pick on one name, is that "smooth rifle" was just the equivalent of the our modern "slug gun". The other names have similar equivalents to todays guns, and it is just a reflection that there is no one gun that is perfect for all uses in all places. We have variety for a reason, because how boring would it be if the only options (just to pick a few common ones) in MLs we had were nothing but a TC hawken for a rifle, a CVA SxS shotgun, and a Traditions pistol, and nothing else available either as a factory build or a custom?

 

[George]

Spence, HEEEEEELP! Where are you?

I'm rat cheer, but you are in trouble if you expect much help from me in sorting out the tangled web we have woven with all these terms.

My sources are only a fraction of what's out there, and certainly aren't the final answer, but here are the impressions I've gained over the years.

Language changes over time, and I guess what we are seeing is an example of that.

Smoothbore is a good example. The term was commonly used in 18th century, but not as we use it. When we say smoothbore, it's one word, and sufficient unto itself. It is the name for a particular kind of gun. It's a modern term, one we in the hobby have created, and probably only understood by us. In the 18th century it was a descriptive term, always used as two words... smooth bore, or smooth bored... and always as a phrase, "smooth bore gun" "smooth bore barrel", "gun with a smooth bore", etc. The way they used it is actually easier to understand than the way we do. When I say smoothbore, I mean a type of single barrel flintlock gun of the 18th century or earlier. I have a little Belgian gun with a smooth bore, single barrel, percussion, from the mid 19th century, and in my mind its not a smoothbore, its a single-barrel shotgun. Don't ask me why, it just is. Even what I call a smoothbore is suspect, since it has a cheek piece and a patch box. Does that make it a smooth rifle? It's not a fowling piece, but what is it, did it ever exist in the day? I doubt it. By strict definition it's a shot gun, or a shotgun, but no one today would call it that.

Fowler was not used as a term for guns, it was for the gunner. They said fowling piece. Fowler was the hunter, whether he was after the fowl with a gun or a net, which may have been more common. Here's a good example of their use of the terms, from the Virginia Gazette, 1771: "This, in my humble Opinion, is just as if you should fire at a Mark with the wrong End of the Fowling Piece foremost, by which the Fowler is more in Danger than the Animal whose Life is intended to be taken away." Today, even the people we think of as experts and look to for the final answers use the term fowler in the modern sense, not as it was used when the guns they are studying and writing books about were made. That seems a little weird, to me.

There are many examples of this same process, and I guess it's just a natural evolution of the language.

They never said shotgun, they said shot gun. They never said shooting pouch, shooting bag, hunting pouch, hunting bag, they said either shot pouch or shot bag. They never said hook breech, they said double breech, draw breech or false breech, and sometimes it seems they mean what we call the butt of the gun when they say breech. They didn't say barrel keys, they said loops or sliding loops. They occasionally used the term 8-square or just square, but not octagonal.

Truth be told, I imagine the terms they used were many times not any more clearly defined than ours are, today.

I learned one thing early on, if you are going to dig into their writings, you will have to essentially learn a new language.

Spence

 

[bpd303]

Just like in the internet age we have to learn a new language...such as P/C for politically correct or H/C for historically correct and GPR for Great Plains Rifle etc. etc. and do not get me started on u r for you are. :cursing:

 

[pargent]

In this game that we play we are trying to use the terms that were used in this particular period to identify just what we are babbling about, when old mate asked a question we all chimed in with good answers and correct, but every one must realise that even in the same country there will be some variations of terms used as well as those of different nationalities that all speak English, then we have gun savy, history savy on top of all this it starts to get heavy imformation wise but I still try to stick to correct terms, that said in my heritage there were no smooth rifles only those that had been shot out With reference to Ike I was not trying to be mean just pointing out the correct use of the word rifle as he has stated in the past he uses us to practice on and yes IN German and French there are not the direct translations to words that we use about muzzleloaders .

 

[pargent]

:rotf: Right on time on another forum site based in the US a chap has photos of a beautiful gun he has just had made , he is well respected in our field and calls his new gun a fowler, to me a somewhat AR stickler for correctness it's a very well made civilian musket based on the Kings Pattern muskets of the time .

 

[AZbpBurner]

that "smoothie" thing is like that "shottie" thing. W.T.H.
must have started in pennsylvania. :stir:

As I recall, 'Shottie' is just a popular 1960's era name for a Jewish Wiener Dog :idunno:

 

[hanshi]

For better or worse I usually call my smoothbore a "musket" even though it is a civilian gun. It just makes it easier. So far the only thing I've killed with it is a deer; sounds funny to call it a "fowler". Or, like Shakespeare wrote; "What's in a name"?

 

[matt denison]

For better or worse I usually call my smoothbore a "musket" even though it is a civilian gun. It just makes it easier. So far the only thing I've killed with it is a deer; sounds funny to call it a "fowler". Or, like Shakespeare wrote; "What's in a name"?

A rose by any other name is still a rose..

Bahaha! Good one Hanshi.

I call my guns "muskets" too. When folks ask what I do for a living I say I run a musket outfit, it just sounds good, most civilians have some idea what a musket is and saves me explaining what a trade gun is. So I just say "I make muskets" and let 'er go at that.

I told you, I deal with this every day. No kidding.

 

[AWsaddles]

I thought the difference in them was you carried a fowler in a case and you carried a musket in a tow sac. Oh wait , that was the difference in a violin and a fiddle. Sorry :hmm: :rotf:

 

[pargent]

Sounds pretty petty but I have seen people travel a long way to shoot in compts. and bring the wrong guns for some of our matches ( a LYMAN trade gun for trade gun match & CW rifles for musket matches ) some go away ranting and others accept loaners and get with it . When guys of equal knowledge etc . are speaking amongst themselves it's not that important because most know what each other are on about , when explaining things to a new guy it's allways best to use correct terminology .

 

[matt denison]

when explaining things to a new guy it's allways best to use correct terminology .

Uh, yea, I guess, sort of. Except at a social event when a person innocently asks what do you do for a living and if I say I make smoothbore flintlock trade guns you can bet that it will take 45 minutes to explain what the heck they are. My neighbors could care less about the HBC, the AMF. NWC, and "The Trade" or the guns that Indians carried and traded for. They all call me Musket Matt and that is fine with me.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

most civilians have some idea what a musket is

Actually I think most civilians think they understand the term, but with continued conversation, they usually demonstrate they don't. :haha:

I used the term "gun" as a juvenile, and upon entering the Marines it was drummed into me that one refers to one's rifle as a "rifle", and a "gun" is something very different. Hence the following poem uttered by recruits while holding their rifle at port-arms with their boxer shorts at their knees when they make the mistake of referring to their rifle as something other than their rifle...

This is my rifle,
this is my gun,
this is for killing,
this is for fun.

I searched the VA Gazette, and they had the following terms for a long barreled firearm,

Dutch-piece,
Dutch gun,
fowling-piece,
a gun...,rifled,
gun, [Note: This was by far the most used word for a long barreled firearm]
a gun and bayonet [note they didn't write "musket" and bayonet],
musket
rifled gun,
rifle,
smooth bore gun,
smooth bore gun rifle-stocked [ was this a smooth rifle by todays standards??]

They did not have firelock, fowler (either as a person or a firearm), fusil, fusee, or fuzee. Nor did they have trade gun.

LD

 

[pargent]

 

[George]

They did not have firelock, fowler (either as a person or a firearm), fusil, fusee, or fuzee. Nor did they have trade gun.

In my database of several newspapers of the 18th century I find all those terms except 'trade gun', do find 'trading guns' and 'Indian trading guns'. They frequently use 'Indian gun' instead of 'trade gun', and I find 'trading bullets' and 'Indian trading bullets'.

The quotation in my post above using both fowling piece and fowler is from the Virginia Gazette, August 15, 1771.

Spence

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Ditto Spence.