To much is made of short arbors

[Bad Karma]

Thanks Snooter!! I'm old but I'm not THAT old !!!

Since I've never heard of wedges being a problem concerning any of the first gen revolvers of any of the various models, I'd have to say it wasn't an issue . . . heck, they were important enough to be numbered to the revolver . . . ( so not really a consumable as often stated, only a consumable for reproductions!)!
Their biggest problem was an iron cylinder that just couldn't handle the full charges plus being loaded with the bullets inverted.

All that said, I'm sure they had a correct build!!
I had the same experience with wedges back in the 80's/90's though so I am well aware of the problems.

Mike

One of the chief complaints the War Department had about the open tops was that the wedges needed replacement (and hand fitting) this is from Pate’s book which is the seminal work on open top Colts in my opinion. He doesn’t note whether this was due to wear or loss in the field but my gut feeling is that they were wearing. apologies for not posting the chapter and verse but I have misplaced my copy of the book. The Army placed many large orders for wedges as well as a few for frames including the arbor.

 

[Bad Karma]

Well, you'd be wrong.
According to Brian Pearce, who has probably been using pressure equipment decades longer than you, lists - Colt SAA, New Frontier, Great Western Arms Frontier, Pietta, Great Western II, Taurus Gaucho as well as others ( those are all Top Strap revolvers), NOT suitable for 45C +p loads which operate at 23K psi. Likewise, the 45acp +p's operate at 23K psi as well.

My 1860 Uberti Army ( an open-top platform) can handle both. So what don't you understand about this?
My Dragoons do it easily ( they're open-top platforms as well).

Mike

Material strength of the cylinders is key in both cases, open top or full frame… I do bel a Colt open top could be made to handle magnum loads and it wouldn’t need to be the size of a Walk or Dragoon.

 

[45D]

One of the chief complaints the War Department had about the open tops was that the wedges needed replacement (and hand fitting) this is from Pate’s book which is the seminal work on open top Colts in my opinion. He doesn’t note whether this was due to wear or loss in the field but my gut feeling is that they were wearing. apologies for not posting the chapter and verse but I have misplaced my copy of the book. The Army placed many large orders for wedges as well as a few for frames including the arbor.

Thanks BK ! I wouldn't doubt it. Even today cowboy shooters think the idea of "thumb tight" is "kool" but it really isn't. With these being a new item I'm sure the learning curve was just as long as it usually is.

Mike

 

[45D]

Material strength of the cylinders is key in both cases, open top or full frame… I do bel a Colt open top could be made to handle magnum loads and it wouldn’t need to be the size of a Walk or Dragoon.

Absolutely it is! That's exactly what we have in a Kirst cylinder . . . and that's why "testing the platform" is easily doable. I think I've overstated many times that I'm interested in how good the platform (support system) is, I already know what the cylinder limitations are. There are some here though that apparently think since a top strap revolver has been made to shoot 454 Casull loads, any top strap revolver should be able to house that cylinder!!

I think you're right, with the right combination, a magnum is possible ( Walt and I have had some discussions about that ).

Mike

 

[nkbj]

Looking forward to trying these in a Dragoon with the arbor length fixed.

 

[Bad Karma]

Absolutely it is! That's exactly what we have in a Kirst cylinder . . . and that's why "testing the platform" is easily doable. I think I've overstated many times that I'm interested in how good the platform (support system) is, I already know what the cylinder limitations are. There are some here though that apparently think since a top strap revolver has been made to shoot 454 Casull loads, any top strap revolver should be able to house that cylinder!!

I think you're right, with the right combination, a magnum is possible ( Walt and I have had some discussions about that ).

Mike

That would be something wouldn’t it? Really start the tongues a waggin’ !
I can’t think of the model or manufacture right now but there was back then a .44 open top made in the south with a full diameter (of the full length of the cylinder) no rebate. Seems like it had a shorter cylinder than the army Colt. Maybe if it used a five shot cylinder and modern materials?

 

[45D]

That would be something wouldn’t it? Really start the tongues a waggin’ !
I can’t think of the model or manufacture right now but there was back then a .44 open top made in the south with a full diameter (of the full length of the cylinder) no rebate. Seems like it had a shorter cylinder than the army Colt. Maybe if it used a five shot cylinder and modern materials?

Yes, it would really be something!!
I think it would be rather easy for the Dragoon platform. Depending on the powder used, I think I can get pretty close to a "Mag power" load in 45C for the Army platform.

I'm not familiar enough with the Confederate revolvers so maybe some of the more historical folks may chime in with what you're thinking about.

Mike

 

[Bad Karma]

Yes, it would really be something!!
I think it would be rather easy for the Dragoon platform. Depending on the powder used, I think I can get pretty close to a "Mag power" load in 45C for the Army platform.

I'm not familiar enough with the Confederate revolvers so maybe some of the more historical folks may chime in with what you're thinking about.

Mike

Dance… that’s the one I think it was. No recoi shields, just a slab sided frame with a Navy style barre extension at the forcEd cone so the cylinder was shorter than the 1860 Colt but full diameter, not rebated.

 

[M. De Land]

What brand of Walker will it be?

Out of curiosity I got the Uberti 1851 out last night and tried to measure the cylinder gap, with the hammer down it was to small to get my smallest feeler gauge in it, .0015..... hammer at half **** and pulling back on the cylinder while pushing forward on the barrel.... still cannot get the .0015 gauge in there.

In fact I cannot detect any movement between the frame and the barrel whatsoever while pushing and prodding so maybe I was the lucky one and got the perfect Uberti from the factory. It shoots really well.

Hope your Walker is put together as well.

I've been on the internet bringing up every video I can find on Walker shooting and most folks say the wedges will both batter and back out when shooting full power loads. The more I learn about them the more I see they just beat up wedges as others have testified on this thread so I'll fit the arbor first thing and see if the wedge holds up or not.
I'm really curious now to find out if there actually is rearward movement (bounce back) causing the wedge failure or if there is some other cause in the Walker like increased wedge taper or to soft steel in the wedge.
If so, then I have it wrong and will have to change my thinking on the importance of end fit and it's prevention of rearward barrel movement .
Still I know the harmonics angle is BS and there is no additional strength to barrel separation with end fit or not.
Arbor end fit blocking bounce back does make sense if it is actually occurring.

 

[45D]

If so, then I have it wrong and will have to change my thinking on the importance of end fit and it's prevention of rearward barrel movement .
Still I know the harmonics angle is BS and there is no additional strength to barrel separation with end fit or not.
Arbor end fit blocking bounce back does make sense if it is actually occurring.

Yessir, "harmonics" is very important in mechanical devices especially machines that produce harsh forces that can manipulate balance problems/ assemblies having like "movement" (in sync) so they don't work against each other (wedge battering forces).
"End fitting" the arbor takes care of that automatically so you can think it's B.S. or not, it really doesn't matter .

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Yessir, "harmonics" is very important in mechanical devices especially machines that produce harsh forces that can manipulate balance problems/ assemblies having like "movement" (in sync) so they don't work against each other (wedge battering forces).
"End fitting" the arbor takes care of that automatically so you can think it's B.S. or not, it really doesn't matter .

Mike

End fitting the arbor to stop potential rear movement is not harmonics, it's preventing space for the wedge (bounce back if it actually is occurring) to get a run at the end of the arbor slot when the ball hits the forcing cone.
If harmonics ( vibration energy transfer) is the destructive force here than it would be more liklely with tight end fit not lack of it .
Walker is supposed to show up in about two weeks.

 

[45D]

End fitting the arbor to stop potential rear movement is not harmonics, it's preventing space for the wedge (bounce back if it actually is occurring) to get a run at the end of the arbor slot when the ball hits the forcing cone.
If harmonics ( vibration energy transfer) is the destructive force here than it would be more liklely with tight end fit not lack of it .
Walker is supposed to show up in about two weeks.

It's exactly NOT what you're saying, but then again, everything else I've ever said is "wrong" too so . . . ( I've owned and shot Walkers and worked on 100's of them and Dragoons but my experience pails in reference to your opinion I'm sure). End fitting is exactly what causes the two assemblies to become one. The "bouncing" is a little elementary to the discussion. We are talking about vibration not " bouncing".


A physical connection between two assemblies allows them to coexist whereas a space between the two allows differing "harmonics" to be a destructive force.


Mike

 

[LongWalker]

So, what's the consensus on how wedges should fit? I have a brand new Uberti 1860 I can experiment with. (After 400 rounds in 10 days, the other is no longer "brand new".)

 

[45D]

So, what's the consensus on how wedges should fit? I have a brand new Uberti 1860 I can experiment with. (After 400 rounds in 10 days, the other is no longer "brand new".)

Simply, mine are "driven" in ( until they stop and couple more good insurance raps !). This won't work until the arbor length is corrected.
Actually, mine are set up a little differently with the spring mounted on the opposite end and shortened so that the spring pops up behind the wedge screw. I call this a "captured wedge". It insures that wedge can't come loose and allow me to fire a round with a loose barrel assy. Especially with the ammo I'm firing.
It makes installation easy because after I insert the wedge, I can turn the wedge screw ( I grind a flat on my wedge screws) which pushes the spring down. Then I just drive the wedge in until the spring pops up behind the screw head. When that happens, you're done!


Mike

 

[bigted]

Wowww!!! Pretty simple in the engineering of these magnificent machines.

once the barrel is assembled over the arbor AND the arbor bottoms in its hole, that wedge is incarted in the slot, it bears pressure against the REAR of the barrel slot and against the FRONT of the arbor slot thus making an engineered coupling between the barrel and the arbor for a machined clearance [which should be zero] for a meld of arbor and barrel making the joined surfaces perfect every time the barrel wedge and barrel is removed and reassembled.

for gosh sakes, just set with ANY open top Colt revolver and try to study its {at the time it were released} magnificent engineering that allowed three components to be involved with one another in perfect bliss.

as for the cylinder gap and fouling … a slightly damp rage or using grease OVER the ball seems to work very well. I can shoot my revolvers[ with the arbor length fixed] all day long with just a bit of a wipe on the cylinder face between loadings.

This ain’t no rocket science!!!

another fact that occurs to me that might just be being missed is the hing effect that happens with every shot. if you look at the bore of the revolver, you will see that it is above the center line of the arbor. Likewise if you observe the bottom of the barrel attachment where those tiny little dowel rods extend from the frame, the barrel fits over these rods to give a battery for the barrel to’HINGE against.

when the shot is fired. IF the arbor I is nestled against the barrel receiver, then that ball thrusts against the forcing cone [which is above the arbor center line] making reassure against the barrel which in turn causes a HINGE effect on the arbor and hinges that force against the small pins and bottom frame thus ensuring that the sights and barrel/cylinder gap remain in perfect alignment every time … assuming that what Mike suggested, the wedge is tapped securely against all the proper surfaces.

Now if the arbor and barrel have an internal GAP then this HINGE effect is muted and the revolver BATTERS itself to a point that the consecutive shots will continue to beat your revolver [literally] to pieces. The lifetime of your companion revolver is prematurely shortened whereas the original article seem to be non the worse for wear as the arbor/barrel marriage is and has been perfect every time. Why do you think the wedge is numbered with the revolver. Maintaining that perfect marriage. In the heat of battle where chaos is surrounding a soldier, it does not surprise me that wedges were lost even at the training range where more than likely there was an angry range officer yelling and screaming at recruits to “GET IT RIGHT’ all the time. and in battle where that chaos is very high, its a wonder that instead of many wedges lost there weren’t revolvers lost as well.

my two cents.

 

[M. De Land]

It's exactly NOT what you're saying, but then again, everything else I've ever said is "wrong" too so . . . ( I've owned and shot Walkers and worked on 100's of them and Dragoons but my experience pails in reference to your opinion I'm sure). End fitting is exactly what causes the two assemblies to become one. The "bouncing" is a little elementary to the discussion. We are talking about vibration not " bouncing".


A physical connection between two assemblies allows them to coexist whereas a space between the two allows differing "harmonics" to be a destructive force.


Mike

Do you make this stuff up as you go ? Vibration does nothing without pressure and inertia . Vibration is not banging up wedges, moving mass or pressure is.
You seem to forget your not the only one that can work on these guns and your ideas are not the only ones that have successful out come.
It's your opinion on why things work as they do some are correct and some are apple sauce.

 

[45D]

Vibration does nothing without pressure and inertia . Vibration is not banging up wedges, moving mass or pressure is.

Yep, 250gr copper bullet hitting a forcing cone with 23K psi = a moving mass under pressure. If it hits a barrel not solidly anchored to the arbor it will vibrate which will do nasty things to wedges ( and they get progressively worse). Anchor the barrel to the arbor and it goes away . . . and you're right, I'm not the only one that does that . . . LOTS of folks have been doing it for over a decade and a half and it works for them too. It's what we've been posting about for over a year now?!!

Mike

 

[Snooterpup]

Simply, mine are "driven" in ( until they stop and couple more good insurance raps !). This won't work until the arbor length is corrected.
Actually, mine are set up a little differently with the spring mounted on the opposite end and shortened so that the spring pops up behind the wedge screw. I call this a "captured wedge". It insures that wedge can't come loose and allow me to fire a round with a loose barrel assy. Especially with the ammo I'm firing.
It makes installation easy because after I insert the wedge, I can turn the wedge screw ( I grind a flat on my wedge screws) which pushes the spring down. Then I just drive the wedge in until the spring pops up behind the screw head. When that happens, you're done!


Mike

Could you post a few pictures please?
Thanks!
Snoot

 

[45D]

Could you post a few pictures please?
Thanks!
Snoot

Yessir.
Insert wedge.

Tighten screw which pushes the wedge spring down.

Drive wedge in until the spring pops up behind the head of the wedge screw.

There ya go, the wedge is captured and under tension.

Mike

 

[Snooterpup]

Hello Mike,
Many thanks for the photos. Any chance of a photo of the top of the wedge out of the gun?
Is this one of the services offered under the Outlaw Mule along with the action shield as an upgrade? I am getting an older Uberti 1851 with a square back trigger guard in October. I'm sure it will need the full outlaw service plus perhaps the above listed options.

On another note, your nemesis seems to acknowledge the Walker wedge battered on both sides. Common sense directs me to believe the arbor to arbor well fix along with the wedge driving the arbor into the well correctly is the only recipe for a solid connection.
Failure to see that both sides getting battered means there is movement under force that only the proper arbor fix can eliminate. Correct me if 'm wrong but think short arbor guns are wacked both with recoil and a millisecond later when the bullet hits the force cone. This same opposing force is what destroys scopes on airguns.
Of course, I could be mistaken...(counted as a flat earther by some)
Thank you for all of the explanations and assistance.
Snoot

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."