To much is made of short arbors

[45D]

Using a feeler gauge isn't a fix . . . or a bandaid.

Is it possible to buy a new Uberti 1851 or 1860, take it out of the box, clean the grease off, load it correctly and have it shoot reliably and accurately without any concern about how long the arbor is?
They were made with a loading ram so that you didn't have to take it apart to reload it. If you do that and use it year after year without any problems why would you need to "fix" that?
If you enjoy tinkering with it or modifying it, go ahead. If you want to pay someone else to do that for you, go ahead. It's your gun and your money.

Sure it is. That's what folks have done since the first reproductions were made. If you shoot light loads you may never have any movement of material. Cowboy shooters do this all the time. When their revolvers get "sloppy" they sell um, trade them or toss them and buy new ones. The savvy ones fix them or get them fixed and keep them for the duration of their shooting ( and typically add to the collection).
With Walkers/Dragoons that are shot with heavy and max loads ,the damage happens rapidly and continuously. Wedges are a consumable, barrel material gets upset, arbors tend to stretch and in some cases arbor failure.
So, you can shoot them like they are or shoot them fixed and not buy all the wedges and repairs.
Again, wouldn't you rather shoot one more like the originals instead of what wouldn't pass for junk?

Mike

 

[bigted]

Tried to ignore this … can’t!!!!

what bothers me most is the notion that a Colt replica can have a short arbor and someone would consider this as “FINE”

anybody that examines the original article will find the arbor to be “JUST RIGHT unless it has been modified . These original Colts were produced to fit perfectly EVERY TIME disassembly reassembly occurred. They were built for quality and fit n finish which makes them stand the vigors of life when care was not to spiffy in most circles.

I do not understand [respectfully] how the cylinder gap and height of the front sight can reasonably be ignored as a result of improper wedge tightening without a solid marrying of the end hole and arbor fit each and every time Perfectly and being tight up against each other every time.

Engineering conflicts with the notion that in a firearm there can be a tolerant acceptance of several thousandths of an inch every time reassembly occurs.

the US gouvernment did NOT provide a feeler gauge to every soldier that was issued a 51 or a 60 Colts revolver I gaurentee.

DRIBBLE indeed. Any engineers in the house that care to weigh in on this … PLEASE?

 

[SDSmlf]

DRIBBLE indeed. Any engineers in the house that care to weigh in on this … PLEASE?

Thought I did in terms everyone, at least in my opinion, could understand. Like the old mathematics principle, use the least common denominator.

 

[Ponderosaman]

Yes sir. Believe it was call progress, but cap and ball revolvers don’t accommodate cartridges without significant modifications to the cylinder. And a Glock would reload even faster.

?

 

[M. De Land]

I wonder why Colt didn’t just cut a few manufacturing corners to save some money and go with a short arbor if that is the case?

Checked two different vintage Colts (both with all matching serial numbers) and found both to put .003”/.005” pre-load on the bottom of the frame. To confirm we used shims (.002” to .006”) in the hole in the barrel assembly to find when the barrel and frame made contact. Do not know if that is how the guns left the factory, but that is how the were found 150 plus years later. The most recent Ubertis I have checked had arbors nearly an 1/8” short.

You don't have a clue sir.
Mike

Well, the majority of the open frame guns in existence which have short arbors and are still working well without your ideas or help would seem to disagree.

Another thought. Why not just put the gauge (aka shim) you are referring to on top of the arbor or in the barrel hole? Believe it would be easier than keeping track of and using it during every assembly? Correct things once and not worry about it every time you put the gun together. I must be missi

Another thought. Why not just put the gauge (aka shim) you are referring to on top of the arbor or in the barrel hole? Believe it would be easier than keeping track of and using it during every assembly? Correct things once and not worry about it every time you put the gun toare still shooting perfectly well without your ideas or help would seem to disagree with you.

 

[M. De Land]

Another thought. Why not just put the gauge (aka shim) you are referring to on top of the arbor or in the barrel hole? Believe it would be easier than keeping track of and using it during every assembly? Correct things once and not worry about it every time you put the gun together. I must be missing something.

I agree with that logic, it's the continual spreading of the false notion that the short arbor guns are inaccurate or not as strong as those that are end fit, is the focus of this thread.
It's the same deal with open frame guns being equally as strong as solid frame guns, another false notion that some how get legs.

 

[French Colonial]

I have never understood the short arbor issue as well, If the arbor is short due to the factory or wedge wear the first shot will force the barrel forward against the wedge holding the barrel on.
The barrel will stay in the same position through subsequent shots because there is nothing moving the barrel back toward the cylinder decreasing the cylinder gap. Accuracy will not change.

And another thing, modern CNC machining may be able to fix short arbors but I find it hard to believe every original Colt had perfect arbors, there is this thing called tool wear and Colt even in the 70's and 80's was turning out some substandard handguns in comparison to their competitors.

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

What French Colonial says sure sounds right to me. The arbor can't control forward movement of the barrel, only the wedge can do that.
I think an engineer would say the whole idea of making the gun in two pieces was not so good anyway.

 

[45D]

I have never understood the short arbor issue as well, If the arbor is short due to the factory or wedge wear the first shot will force the barrel forward against the wedge holding the barrel on.
The barrel will stay in the same position through subsequent shots because there is nothing moving the barrel back toward the cylinder decreasing the cylinder gap. Accuracy will not change.

And another thing, modern CNC machining may be able to fix short arbors but I find it hard to believe every original Colt had perfect arbors, there is this thing called tool wear and Colt even in the 70's and 80's was turning out some substandard handguns in comparison to their competitors.

What French Colonial says sure sounds right to me. The arbor can't control forward movement of the barrel, only the wedge can do that.
I think an engineer would say the whole idea of making the gun in two pieces was not so good anyway.

Here's a perfect example of the problem with this subject.
Two folks that don't understand the design arguing that there's nothing wrong with a short arbor!!!
There's a Loooong thread that explains being able to shoot +p.45 ammo out of belt pistols without damaging the revolver. So, I guess the revolvers know to "stay together" if you're shooting that type ammo but loose powder and ball/ conical will cause one to bend the wedge, bulge barrel material behind the wedge . . .
Jim in Wisconsin, if the arbor isn't there to position the wedge, how in the world would it NOT control the forward movement of the barrel?

Mike

 

[Mikekj]

Dribble? Is that what it is?

I don’t know what he’s “dribbling”.

Drivel (driv-el)
Noun.
Nonsense.

 

[B P Arn]

I don’t know what he’s “dribbling”.

Drivel (driv-el)
Noun.
Nonsense.

Finally!!!

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

Gosh Mike, it sure seems like the slot in the arbor positions the wedge, not the end of it.
If you take the wedge out, the barrel just slides forwards don't it?

 

[GYJ]

I look at it like this. Virtually any consumer product had shortcuts made in its manufacture. Sure, the item functions but unless it's hand built from the beginning, ANY firearm benefits from some level of tuning or other form of improvement. Even a brand new $2500 Colt probably needs an action job to do its best work. It probably needs some other tuning (throats, forcing cone, crown) for best accuracy as well. Will it function without all of that? Sure. Will it eat itself with prolonged use? Probably. Will it last a generation because most people don't shoot them enough to discover the shortcomings? Probably. There's a whole slew of gunsmiths who've made a living off the fact that factory guns ain't perfect. This is no different.

 

[GYJ]

Gosh Mike, it sure seems like the slot in the arbor positions the wedge, not the end of it.
If you take the wedge out, the barrel just slides forwards don't it?

And what stops the barrel's rearward movement? It 'should' be the arbor against the hole in the barrel. When it's short, the forcing cone bears against the cylinder. The wedge should only be holding it in place.

 

[Ballshooter]

I am just a dumb red neck but if the arbor doesn't bottom out the wedge will move the barrel it will also change cylinder gap as well as rise the POI. Sure you can shoot it with a short arbor and can be accurate if you pay attention to the wedge, but good luck getting it the same every time! If the arbor is short the wedge determines many things as stated above, If the arbor bottoms out it only does one thing...
"Holds the barrel"

 

[AlexB]

What is this short arbor that people are about to go ape s*** on each other over.

Been shooting C&B for 40 years.

Did I miss out on 40 years of worrying?

Now I also worry I haven't been worried........ damn.

 

[CaptainVane]

Is it possible to buy a new Uberti 1851 or 1860, take it out of the box, clean the grease off, load it correctly and have it shoot reliably and accurately without any concern about how long the arbor is?
They were made with a loading ram so that you didn't have to take it apart to reload it. If you do that and use it year after year without any problems why would you need to "fix" that?
If you enjoy tinkering with it or modifying it, go ahead. If you want to pay someone else to do that for you, go ahead. It's your gun and your money.

100%. My Uberti ‘51 .36 that i bought new in March, that i have shot hundreds thru (TOW loves me for all I purchase) is dead accurate at 50 yards to the point that semi auto guys at range are amazed. Short arbor? I dont care.
Edit: I tap the wedge in and don’t measure how far, if i can see it on the starboard side its good enough. Same with cone gap.

 

[French Colonial]

I am just a dumb red neck but if the arbor doesn't bottom out the wedge will move the barrel it will also change cylinder gap as well as rise the POI. Sure you can shoot it with a short arbor and can be accurate if you pay attention to the wedge, but good luck getting it the same every time! If the arbor is short the wedge determines many things as stated above, If the arbor bottoms out it only does one thing...
"Holds the barrel"

If the arbor holds the barrel what is the wedge doing?

If the barrel is pushed forward and the wedge is stopping it from going any further forward please tell me what is causing the barrel to move rearward between shots that would change the cylinder gap.

 

[user 54092]

Helical threads made of soft metal (arbor/frame mating surface) slammed continuously in a violent matter (a free floating/short arbor), will see the arbor loosen within the frame. I have one of these guns, you can move the barrel up and down since the threads within the frame have been stretched.

Actually I have 2, a new one and an old one. You can feel the recoil of the "moving" parts (cylinder and whatever else is sliding) during firing in the new one. Put a lock washer in the new one to take up the free space in front of the arbor and the difference is night and day. I don't like things out of spec.

 

[French Colonial]

100%. My Uberti ‘51 .36 that i bought new in March, that i have shot hundreds thru (TOW loves me for all I purchase) is dead accurate at 50 yards to the point that semi auto guys at range are amazed. Short arbor? I dont care.

Truthfully, the number of people who can shoot a handgun really well are few compared to the internet marksmen.

That should get things started.

Helical threads made of soft metal (arbor/frame mating surface) slammed continuously in a violent matter (a free floating/short arbor), will see the arbor loosen within the frame. I have one of these guns, you can move the barrel up and down since the threads within the frame have been stretched.

Actually I have 2 and you can feel the recoil of the "moving" parts (cylinder and whatever else is sliding) during firing. Put a lock washer in one of them to take up the free space in front of the arbor and the difference is night and day.

So... as the wedge and its mating surfaces wear to you continue to add shims?