To much is made of short arbors

[Ed C.]

The adjutive is " most" not "all" which incorporates factory Uberti's and 30 years worth of Pietta's. My 80 version 60 Pietta once worked over with a new trigger , front sight and crown job was as accurate as the 58 or ROA before it's over haul and that had more to do with the inferior sights it came with than accuracy potential.
If you get the wedge in the same depth with each reassembly using a gauge, you won't give up any accuracy to end fit or lack there of in my opinion.

Who wants to mess with a gauge every time you break down your gun when you can do a one time fix on the arbor. If you are the type of person that loves measuring every little thing on your gun before shooting it then stick with your method. I like a solid consistent way to approach shooting that will give me a good group. My interests are in shooting not doing a machinists evaluation on my gun. Word comes to mind.....reasonable.

 

[GYJ]

Actually I have more knowledge about cars than most of the youngsters in my local dealership who have never rebuilt an engine or kept one going with baling wire and duct tape back when I was poor.
And there are only a few I would trust implicitly.

Yeah, dang those dealerships that skip the baling wire and duct tape courses.

I said mechanic, not dealership. Do dealerships rebuild engines or just replace them? Today's auto techs have a lot more complicated crap to worry about than piston rings and valve guides.

The point still stands.

 

[SPQR70AD]

A short arbor has a lot to do with accuracy.
In fact if the arbor is not seated tight against the frame you will never get consistent “ good” accuracy.
If your targets are man sized targets at spitting distance then yes arbor fit isn’t no big deal.
But at those distances and size of targets rifling doesn’t matter much either.
I use an 1851 Uberti Navy for squirrel hunting,,and can make head shots pretty consistently at shots under 20 yards.
Before fixing the short arbor the shot group would fluctuate on the target at 25 yards with every removal of the cylinder .
This was shooting off a sand bag rest.
I also tweeked the sights for a better sight picture.
It has replaced my S&W model 17 for all my small game hunting under 25 yards.

if you could make head shots on squirrels at 20 yds which is highly unlikely you would be the pistol champ

 

[SPQR70AD]

solution....get an 1858

 

[Ballshooter]

if you could make head shots on squirrels at 20 yds which is highly unlikely you would be the pistol champ

I have seen some pictures of them..I don't doubt him one second. The 1851 navy is accurate this was shot one handed @ 20 yards that's 12 shots on steel. First time shooting this 1851. I use a Leica Rangemaster CRF 1200 to check range not guess.

 

[Bad Karma]

What happens when the cylinder binds up from powder residue? SOP is to disassemble, clean and reassemble. And for what it is worth, there are many variations for the short arbor fix. Using a gauge when assembling as the OP suggests is an every time you assemble fix. If one is mechanically competent enough to load, shoot and clean an open top revolver, they likely have the skills to make ‘permanent’ one time fix.

I do not understand the reluctance to make such an easy improvement/repair, nor do I understand why it is so difficult for the manufacturer, Uberti, to take care of before the gun leaves the factory. It must be me.

Or, rather than disassemble, dampen a rag, wipe the face of the cylinder, reload and keep shooting. Once the action has been grease packed I can completely clean a Colt without disassembling at all.

 

[Ballshooter]

Or, rather than disassemble, dampen a rag, wipe the face of the cylinder, reload and keep shooting. Once the action has been grease packed I can completely clean a Colt without disassembling at all.

So you never take the nipples out or clean the cylinder cambers thoroughly ?

 

[SDSmlf]

Or, rather than disassemble, dampen a rag, wipe the face of the cylinder, reload and keep shooting. Once the action has been grease packed I can completely clean a Colt without disassembling at all.

How do you ‘grease the action’ without disassembling the gun? My answer was in response to the following question.

Is it possible to buy a new Uberti 1851 or 1860, take it out of the box, clean the grease off, load it correctly and have it shoot reliably and accurately without any concern about how long the arbor is?
They were made with a loading ram so that you didn't have to take it apart to reload it. If you do that and use it year after year without any problems why would you need to "fix" that?

 

[64Springer]

So you never take the nipples out or clean the cylinder cambers thoroughly ?

Some folks on here swear by not removing nipples for cleaning.

I don't think I could sleep knowing I didn't remove the nipples and scrubbed them.

 

[Bad Karma]

So you never take the nipples out or clean the cylinder cambers thoroughly ?

I can clean the chambers thoroughly from the muzzle. I don’t always clean without disassembling but if I’m pressed for time I do so often enough that I trust my method. Regardless of that, I remove the nipples every year or so. Currently I have at least 16 percussion Colts and Colt replicas, two Remington Navies, one Remington Army. I defy anyone to find rust or corrosion in or on any of them. Do what works for you, not what “everyone else“ says you must do.

 

[Bad Karma]

How do you ‘grease the action’ without disassembling the gun? My answer was in response to the following question.

How do you ‘grease the action’ without disassembling the gun? My answer was in response to the following question.

and mine was only to yours re: cylinder binding from powder fouling… The Remington shooters have little choice but to pull the pin and wipe it too at some point… If some manufacturer uninterested in HC would only improve the design with the addition of a cylinder bushing they’d have nearly the perfect c&b revolver, aside from the grip frame and the obvious aesthetic deficiencies of course.

 

[SDSmlf]

If some manufacturer uninterested in HC would only improve the design

Believe Ruger did.

FYI, just answering your question out of context. I can also do that.

 

[Rich44]

Yes, there is no reason why Uberti or other manufactures cannot make a revolver correctly. Just as we have opinions here that it is acceptable so does these companys. Colt at that time did not have near the tool room machines as we have now. No digitalis on lathes and milling machines, and no CNC machines. The only excuse for not doing what Colt accomplished in 1860 is poor management, engineers, and sloppy work.

 

[64Springer]

Yes, there is no reason why Uberti or other manufactures cannot make a revolver correctly. Just as we have opinions here that it is acceptable so does these companys. Colt at that time did not have near the tool room machines as we have now. No digitalis on lathes and milling machines, and no CNC machines. The only excuse for not doing what Colt accomplished in 1860 is poor management, engineers, and sloppy work.

Colt fitted parts using lamp black, Prussian blue or some other material that showed up/rubbed off when metal touched metal.

Take a few swipes with a file and some sandpaper until no more black rubbed off.

That is what's required in modern times too. No different than inletting a lock into a mortise. Making sure the bolster is 100% in contact with the side of the barrel. It takes time and knowing what you're doing.

CNCs are great machines, but they have their limitations. Unless people want to pay to have those limitation tweaked to perfection.

Even then, hand fitting is required to maintain a .001/.002 gap between the end of the arbor and the bottom of a blind hole. In a perfect world there'd be no gap at all. Metal to metal.

And that blind hole could no longer be drilled, as they are now. You'd have to go in with a two-flute end mill, so the arbor end has full contact with the bottom of the arbor hole.

All of which gets expensive. Your 350 dollar reproduction Colt just went to 500 bucks.

 

[45D]

All of which gets expensive. Your 350 dollar reproduction Colt just went to 500 bucks.

Yes, that's true but I'd put mine up against any $1,000.00 + revolver.

You are right, hand fitting is still king!!

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

This is true, what's missing is that the wedge must have something solid on both sides to push(wedge) against so that it can tighten up. If the arbor is short, the only thing holding the barrel side firm for the wedge to push against and lock is the front of the cylinder, which needs to move. So the arbor is in effect, loose, it's not doing much. When fired, the barrel assembly won't be pushed forward and stay there, it will rattle back and forth. The cylinder should be "floating" between the barrel and standing breech, which should be locked together into a solid, it's not a supporting member.

The back side of a properly fit wedge in the barrel slots pulls/holds the barrel rearward, the front of the wedge in arbor slot cams the barrel to the rear against the front of the arbor slot. The length of the wedge angle (depth sets/traps) this adjustment against any forward movement wither or not the arbor bottoms out in the well.
The arbor end fit is a good method to regulate wedge depth but there is no barrel separation strengthening it can provide because of the disconnected joint between the bottom of the well and front of the arbor. Jamming them together provides no additional mechanical advantage of separation.
The fact that there must be a couple of thousands of radial clearance between the arbor diameter (OD) and the arbor well diameter (ID) for the two parts to couple up is not removed by tight end fit although snug wedge thickness fit top to bottom in both barrel and arbor slots does take up some of this slack.
A well fitted wedge will be snug in the top to bottom slot fit as well as front to back for this reason. The arbor end does not need to make contact with the arbor well bottom to trap the barrel between the front and back of the wedge. It acts as a wedge depth stop.
The wedge has a five degree angle on the front side and the back should be straight across and fit both of the rear barrel slots equally.
The front side of the wedge angle should fit and contact as much of the arbor slot cross section as is possible less the lead in to the slot.
What must be kept in mind is that a very small cross section of arbor steel above and below the arbor slot is all that keeps the barrel assembly from going down range with the ball.
Now compare that cross section of arbor steel ( off set from the thrust line) to the top strap and lower frame of a closed frame gun (on opposite sides) of the thrust line and you will be able to understand the design strength advantage of the later.

 

[M. De Land]

Who wants to mess with a gauge every time you break down your gun when you can do a one time fix on the arbor. If you are the type of person that loves measuring every little thing on your gun before shooting it then stick with your method. I like a solid consistent way to approach shooting that will give me a good group. My interests are in shooting not doing a machinists evaluation on my gun. Word comes to mind.....reasonable.

It is simply a very easy and accurate method of wedge depth regulation if one has a short arbor gun that has not been arbor end fit.

 

[Ballshooter]

If the arbor holds the barrel what is the wedge doing?

If the barrel is pushed forward and the wedge is stopping it from going any further forward please tell me what is causing the barrel to move rearward between shots that would change the cylinder gap.

Yep arbor holds the barrel , cylinder and wedge...as you fire your hammer pushes the cylinder against the barrel and forces the barrel to move forward. Your cylinder gap has now changed if you think it didn't take a measurement before and after. With a short arbor this will always happen pretty simple even a cave man can understand.
The wedge will not fit tight I guarantee it unless you shim the wedge but then all your doing is raising the POI and changing the cylinder gap. I don't care if others want to shoot a short arbor all it does is beat the parts a slow death. I would also think after time miss fires will be more common. It's an open top design WHY NOT MAKE IT MORE SOLD? There is no way a short arbor has a tight fitting wedge and no way to accurately have the same gun every time you shoot or remove and put back the barrel. Some get the concept and some don't and that's okay do what you want nobody is trying to say your wrong.

 

[M. De Land]

Or, rather than disassemble, dampen a rag, wipe the face of the cylinder, reload and keep shooting. Once the action has been grease packed I can completely clean a Colt without disassembling at all.

I think that action (synthetic grease packing notion) a very good idea !

 

[45D]

The back side of a properly fit wedge in the barrel slots pulls/holds the barrel rearward, the front of the wedge in arbor slot cams the barrel to the rear against the front of the arbor slot. The length of the wedge angle (depth sets/traps) this adjustment against any forward movement wither or not the arbor bottoms out in the well.
The arbor end fit is a good method to regulate wedge depth but there is no barrel separation strengthening it can provide because of the disconnected joint between the bottom of the well and front of the arbor. Jamming them together provides no additional mechanical advantage of separation.
The fact that there must be a couple of thousands of radial clearance between the arbor diameter (OD) and the arbor well diameter (ID) for the two parts to couple up is not removed by tight end fit although snug wedge thickness fit top to bottom in both barrel and arbor slots does take up some of this slack.
A well fitted wedge will be snug in the top to bottom slot fit as well as front to back for this reason. The arbor end does not need to make contact with the arbor well bottom to trap the barrel between the front and back of the wedge. It acts as a wedge depth stop.
The wedge has a five degree angle on the front side and the back should be straight across and fit both of the rear barrel slots equally.
The front side of the wedge angle should fit and contact as much of the arbor slot cross section as is possible less the lead in to the slot.
What must be kept in mind is that a very small cross section of arbor steel above and below the arbor slot is all that keeps the barrel assembly from going down range with the ball.
Now compare that cross section of arbor steel ( off set from the thrust line) to the top strap and lower frame of a closed frame gun (on opposite sides) of the thrust line and you will be able to understand the design strength advantage of the later.

This is exactly the explanation one would give that doesn't understand the dynamics of the barrel pulled with great tension against the end of the arbor. Without the contact and tension, the end of the arbor could (and will) be pulled and torn off. The fact that static force is constantly pulling against the end of the arbor is what keeps the arbor from separation. If there is space between the end of the arbor and the bottom of the arbor hole (space for separation to happen) separation can and will happen.
For this reason, an Uberti 1860 Army can maintain it's build tolerances and handle a steady diet of 45acp +p ammo.

It's in fact, a BRILLIANT design that works perfectly if executed correctly.

So technically, since the wedge actually mates the barrel and the arbor together ( as a single unit), the barrel IS screwed into the frame ( since the arbor is screwed into the frame) and of course the cylinder is mounted between the two . . .

Mike