Traditional M/L Guns from India

[rickystl]

Thanks Cyten for the additional photos. Great !!!

Rick

 

[springfield art]

Some period photos

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Talk about Primitive!!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

They still used such guns in the early 1900's for clobbering tigers though, Spingfield Art.

All best,
Rich.

 

[TobJohn]

Are there any good books on Indian muzzleloaders?

 

[rickystl]

Are there any good books on Indian muzzleloaders?

Hi John

Not that I know of. Most of the books on Indian made arms seem to focus more on the blades and armour versus the guns. Possibly because that is what most of the collectors are interested in. Muzzle loading guns like the Torador seem to be somewhat of an after-thought with the authors.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Hi John

Not that I know of. Most of the books on Indian made arms seem to focus more on the blades and armour versus the guns. Possibly because that is what most of the collectors are interested in. Muzzle loading guns like the Torador seem to be somewhat of an after-thought with the authors.

Rick

That’s a bummer. My girlfriend just got back from an architecture trip to Delhi, so hearing her talk about the Mughal art and architecture re-inspired me to learn about Toradors.

 

[Rudyard]

Yes& No . There is a book written by Lord Eggerton of Tatton on India arms I think it got reprinted by Dover , I only have a thick file of photo copied of the book I saw at Glenbow museum .I say yes & no because a bit like' Stones Glossary ' much could be accounts other contempories told him what they thought it was and while Col .so & so might have picked it up and Lucknow or wherever . it might only by chance be of that region or was given by some other 'Mull' ( White Sahib )merchant or administrator & what they thought it was . Mull is from Mulligatawny soup presumably peppery stuff and donates a long time India hand . Evey thing is peppery stuff ! they even put pepper on bread & butter in Ceylon . Ide never heard of' Mull' but a friend who was an officer in the Gurkas told me that . both are worth perusal just may be incorrect some times .
Ime incorrect lots of times I understand these things ! Regards Me

PS this was a reply to Tobjohns PM re books on Indian arms but since it dosnt expose either of us its fine by me .

 

[TobJohn]

Unfortunately no Indian matchlocks on display at the Met, but there was a Mughal illustration that showed one stowed on a litter, which I thought was an interesting setup:

 

[Sam squanch]

That’s in case he wants to do some road hunting….. where’s his spotlight?

 

[TobJohn]

That’s in case he wants to do some road hunting….. where’s his spotlight?

The ol' palanquin drive-by

 

[MrTwelvette]

It may sound odd, but I keep one of these handy in the kitchen for skunks and other varmints.
It is a very reliable gun. The one in question is so light it is like it starved to death! A mere stick for a stock, and a very light barrel about 40 inches if I remember right.
It's from up in Rajasthan. It needed work, had parts missing and barrel was plugged.
When I got the latter unplugged I found it was loaded with fireworks and a six inch nail!
It needed some fine boring, and the barrel is still pretty awful but it throws shot well enough.

These arms are so hard to date, as those depicted in the miniatures of Akbar or his Grandson, Shah Jajan, are identical to many seen nowadays.
So, Are they 16th century or 19th ? There are a few differences in some, but others are very difficult to tell!

As Rick can attest, these barrels have a rather huge powder chamber, a narrower "neck" to prevent a ball entering said chamber, then a normal straight bore to the muzzle.
One of mine I have used quite a bit holds 5 drams in the powder chamber and goes off with a terrific noise! (136.5 grains) The bore takes a .535 unpatched ball very nicely, with either a cow dung (Dried!) wad, or felt wads if you prefer.
The cow dung is traditional, and somehow keeps the bore from fouling badly! Yes, that Does sound Ironic! LOL
This gun came from Jaipur.
I believe it was solely a sporting gun. You will see now and again toradors with two hamsa, one on either side of the stock behind the tang area. These are birds, goose or swan like and known as Hamsa in Hinduism. They are mythalogical birds with various spiritual meanings.
I believe that only Toradors from Jaipur and Amber bear these likenesses inlet into the stock.
These guns also have a few other identifying features, like the hole behind the breech in which to extinguish the match. Many others have a metal snuffer attached to the lock side.
Here are a couple f pictures of mine, rather dirty after a shooting session, plus the steel target!
the last photo shows the 'wadding'.
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Hi Pukka, that is a lovely looking gun!

I myself have a very plain munitions grade toradar that I'd like to start shooting.

Can you walk me through your cleaning routine? I've only got experience with modern percussion muzzleloaders and use the 'wool mop and bucket of soapy water' method. I'm not sure I want to fill my powder chamber with water...

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Well Mr T,
What I do is just that, my idea how to clean these rather mysterious guns!
I plug the touchhole and jam kitchen over the touchhole using the pan cover to hold it in place, then I get some water down the barrel and tip it out a couple of times.
then, using a rag on a cleaning worm, I (with more water in the barrel) pump ir up and down the bore a bit and dump it out.
I then use paper towel on the worm, more or less down and back up the bore till they come out clean,
The anti-chamber can normally be cleaned with a wool mop and rinsed until it looks clean.
Pan and such can be cleaned up using a damp rag, and dry rag or paper down the bore to dry it all out. pumping it up and down will blow air through the touchhole helping to dry the anti-chamber.
When all dry, oil it with a another wool mop, and stand on the muzzle so surplus can drain back out.

Hope this helps, Mr T. but others may have better ideas.

Best,
R.

 

[MrTwelvette]

I don't suppose any owners and shooters would be interested in comparing touchhole sizes?
My barrel (pictured prior to test firing) is 46 inches long, has an approx 13mm bore and a touchhole a hair under 3mm.

Does anyone know or care to speculate if the guns were made with touchholes that seem large to western eyes or this is the result of wear and erosion?

 

[rickystl]

Hi Pukka

Your method for cleaning these strange barrels sounds really good. May be the only way LOL. I remember you restoring your Torador. It turned out wonderful. Really like the combination copper and leather barrel bands. I guess as long as you can fit the mop through the narrow section, it will mostly clean the anti-chamber, as long as it's not too large. All makes sense. And probably easier than going to the extreme that I did with my barrel sending it off to Bobby Hoyt. LOL

Rick

 

[Pukka Bundook]

As these guns fire heavy charges and have usually rotten bores, I am sure the touchhole size reflects wear through erosion,and poor maintainance.
I do not think we will find a pristine touch-hole in such worn bores.

Just saw your post Rick!
One of mine is one of the minority with no anti chamber, but my regular pest control model has one!
Edited to add, Rick,

If a wool mop wont go through the narrow passage, try a loop on a rod.
Stuff raw wool through the eye and push it into the chamber, then twist it around to scour the walls. rinse and repeat. Wool is dandy at compressing and wont jamb up like cloth can.

When dry, standing on its nose, more wool well oiled works.

 

[rickystl]

I don't suppose any owners and shooters would be interested in comparing touchhole sizes?
My barrel (pictured prior to test firing) is 46 inches long, has an approx 13mm bore and a touchhole a hair under 3mm.

Does anyone know or care to speculate if the guns were made with touchholes that seem large to western eyes or this is the result of wear and erosion?

Hi Mr. T

As far as your last question: I think it's a combination of both. Many of the Eastern market guns do seem to have larger touch holes than many of their European counterparts. But then, they all seem to have used larger touch holes than what we typically use today. It may have been due to their theory of the priming powder acting like a fuse on it's travel to the main charge in the barrel. In later times, and today, we know it's the "flash" that creates the combustion.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Pukka: Now I remember you mentioning that. Interesting that the guns from South India that I've examined do not have the anti-chamber. It seems to be only the Northern styles. Curious.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Here is a pic of the original touch hole on my barrel. Quite large. But the touch hole I drilled in the steel liner is only about 3/32nds as I recall.

Rick

 

[MrTwelvette]

You'll have to forgive me if the following doesn't belong here as traditional. But I've seen this (presumably) Indian barrel stocked up in the European fashion with EIC lock on the saleroom.

It did get me thinking though, are there any examples of traditional stocks with flintlocks? I've seen a lot of afghan jezails with English locks, but no Jaipur style stocks with flints.

 

[Sam squanch]

Yes there are a few. A forum member I think has one that has duel ignition, a flintlock combined with a matchlock. I saw one converted to percussion!