Traditional M/L Guns from India

[Barud]

Thanks, Barud!
Safavid… I had totally blanked on the empires name.
Ottoman influence makes sense and why I was initially curious because I know they were in frequent conflict, while I wasn’t sure about their contact/conflict with the Mughals

Babur, the Mughal founder, swore fealty to Isma'il (the Safavid Shah) at some point. But it seems to have been an uneasy alliance against the Shaybanids (the Uzbek dynasty descending on Khorasan to pick apart what's left of the Timurids, i.e. Babur's worst nightmare) to my understanding. Babur was Sunni and Isma'il was a rather fanatical Shi'a, a religious leader on top of being a political one. So when Babur had the chance to cozy with the Ottomans instead, he took it, and the Ottomans seem to have sent him technological advisors and know-how as a token of goodwill. He mentions using the Wagenburg order of battle in Panipat, which was appropriated from the Hungarians by the Ottomans.

 

[TobJohn]

He mentions using the Wagenburg order of battle in Panipat, which was appropriated from the Hungarians by the Ottomans.

That is a very fascinating detail and a cool example of how far ideas can travel.

 

[toot]

Maby the SILK TRADE had something to do with it? just a thought?

 

[cyten]

Hi John

Much agree with Pukka's remarks above. The general stock shape of many of the Persian guns looked very similar to Caucasian guns. Or, you could say this in reverse. I tend to think the latter. All Persian made complete guns tend to be very rare today. I seem to remember reading a long time ago that much of Persia's guns were destroyed during the 19th Century by an invading army. But I can't confirm this. If true, that would account for their rarity today. Persia was also known then for the quality of their barrels.
Here is a pic of one of those all Persian made survivors in my collection. Authority Artzi Yarom places this gun late 18th, early 19th century.

Rick

Here is a photo I saw today in the Mashtots museum in Yerevan of a Bakhtiari man from Iran with percussion rifle from 1888-90. First Persian rifle I’ve seen in period photos.

 

[Rudyard]

Maby the SILK TRADE had something to do with it? just a thought?

Dear Toot . Very likely at some point the silk trade does get into the plot it was an important factor of trade and the communication of Ideas .So can't be overlooked .Regards Rudyard

 

[toot]

Rudyard, I also believe it to be true. it did have a great influence on the world.

 

[Rudyard]

On another note a great many in proportion of the recovered Barrels by Major Corry had been put or restocked into side plug conversions from whatever form of lock it originally had Viz , Miguelet flint or even Matchlock . But the percussion plugs usually had a long portion that effectivley formed the' Bar ' and probably a new percussion lock such as that Indian Video showed . These same locks I bought in India in some numbers of them .Ide go over them case harden ect but the springs where most allway's good . Three I used on my own guns & there still good from the mid 70s . And their where numbers of basic double rifles out of Liege that had the Persian Snow lions in them dated 1868 maybe 1888 stamped V Gullicars Liege Most of this haul was out of Police stations in Kurdistan so the story went but Persia not Turkish or further Eastern but I don't know precisely where he found them all they were a about 58 cal rifled with a rude ladder rear sight . The ones I previously illustrated where all from this haul .along with rough Werndles .
Regards Rudyard

 

[TobJohn]

Babur, the Mughal founder, swore fealty to Isma'il (the Safavid Shah) at some point. But it seems to have been an uneasy alliance against the Shaybanids (the Uzbek dynasty descending on Khorasan to pick apart what's left of the Timurids, i.e. Babur's worst nightmare) to my understanding. Babur was Sunni and Isma'il was a rather fanatical Shi'a, a religious leader on top of being a political one. So when Babur had the chance to cozy with the Ottomans instead, he took it, and the Ottomans seem to have sent him technological advisors and know-how as a token of goodwill. He mentions using the Wagenburg order of battle in Panipat, which was appropriated from the Hungarians by the Ottomans.

I am currently reading The Renaissance at War, by Thomas F Arnold. It also states the Ottomans helped spread the Wagenberg to India. The author mentions that it managed to spread as far as China by 1568, which gives credence to Toot’s claim of the Silk Road’s influence.

 

[rickystl]

A just for fun photo...

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Here's the last Jezail in my collection. It's a fairly typical design with a tapered round barrel with slight flair and a genuine British EIC lock.
The stock is still solid and amazingly it appears all the mother of pearl inlays are still intact. The barrel looks like it was chemically cleaned some years ago. The wood ramrod is a later day replacement. So I'll likely need a new iron rod. The lock needs cleaned, like the rest of the gun, but is in good working order. The trigger guard is missing. You can see the evidence where it once was. Looks like someone simply removed it. So I need to locate one with the long tail. The front sling swivel and mount are missing, but I have an original swivel. Need to have a new mount made. They were made from iron or horn.

I paid very little for this gun. So I thought this would be a good candidate to make into a shooter. The bore is about fair. But Mr. Hoyt can either burnish or reline it. It's a smooth bore. So if anyone reading this has a trigger guard or a Jezail parts gun they would like to sell/trade for, let me know. Here's some pics....

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

Here is an example of Indian cartridge containers and a belt in the Royal Armouries

 

[BillinOregon]

The erudition evident in these threads astonishes me. I raise a glass to you, gentlemen!
Having to look up the Wagenburg tactic, I came upon this enlightening thread from a forum unknown to me. The author has a dry wit.

https://vk.com/wall-81668509_200553?lang=en

 

[Pukka Bundook]

What's the grappling iron rig at the muzzle end of the gun for Jon? (In your above pic)
I presume its muzzle end!

 

[Sam squanch]

Rampart gun maybe, to hook over a wall? But why hooks going the other way? Maybe to hang it up when not in use?

 

[TobJohn]

What's the grappling iron rig at the muzzle end of the gun for Jon? (In your above pic)
I presume its muzzle end!

I do not remember. I passed the case on my way out of the exhibit and took a pic of the cartridges because they caught my eye. I’ll see if I can find the gun on their online collection.

 

[Sam squanch]

I know- they launched the hook over a wall and climbed up like Batman and Robin…..

 

[rickystl]

Here is a photo I saw today in the Mashtots museum in Yerevan of a Bakhtiari man from Iran with percussion rifle from 1888-90. First Persian rifle I’ve seen in period photos.

View attachment 188094

WOW!! Thanks for the photo. First time I've seen also. Thanks. I'll add this to my library. Again, we notice how closely his long gun resembles those of the Caucasus. And again, today, Persian-made guns are considered rare with collectors. Either flint or percussion. Most of the remaining examples today are in percussion. Which makes the flintlock/miquelet variations even more rare.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

View attachment 224261
Here is an example of Indian cartridge containers and a belt in the Royal Armouries

John: Thanks for the photo. What a beautiful set of powder chargers. Imagine how long it would take to carve/polish these from elephant tusks, decorate, and fine stitch the leather bandoleer portion. Apparently they did not view labor as we do today. LOL

Maybe you can write back to the museum and suggest they send me this set on loan for actual field testing and further evaluation. Shouldn't take me more than 4-5 years and I'll return them. LOL

Rick

 

[rickystl]

What's the grappling iron rig at the muzzle end of the gun for Jon? (In your above pic)
I presume its muzzle end!

Hi Pukka

I have no idea what the hook is for. But I seem to recall once seeing a photo of a combination torador musket and crossbow that had a similar hook. Curious.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

They are probably getting tired of hearing from me lol. I think they must have a policy requiring responses.

Here are the cartridges:
Cartridge carrier with ivory bottles - Royal Armouries collections

Here is the gun:
Matchlock combination bow and musket For hunting - Royal Armouries collections