Traditions Crockett Problem - On to Pedersoli?

[Micah Clark]

Hi Gang,

I have a story and a dilemma concerning my Traditions Crockett .32 rifle, which I bought used 4 years ago from a store called the Log Cabin Shop at a local primitives show.

For 4 years I have shot the gun (around 250 times) using every load, ball, powder, patch, lube, rod pressure combo that I can think of as well as new sights and new nipple. I could never get the gun to group well enough to squirrel hunt with it, though I did do so, but with not very pretty results, which I prefer not to share.

I am not an expert, but I do have a Lyman GPR 50 in Flintlock that I can group in 2 inches or less, so I am doing something right many times. It was a piece of cake compared to the Crockett. In fact, had I spent as much time with it, as the Crockett, I can only imagine how good of a shot I'd be with the Lyman.

Finally, I gave up. I called Traditions about a new barrel, thinking that must be it. They were very nice, and said, it sounds like you've tried everything, send it to us and we will range test it and let you know the load we use if we can get it to group well. I wrote a long letter detailing everything I had tried and my inability to get small groups the size needed.

I have seen stories and pics of people grouping the Crockett and placing a quarter coin over three shots. My groups off a bench were more like a softball size, or the bottom of a coffee cup (though not always, but never satisfactory enough or consistent enough for humanely hunting squirrel even at 20 yards.)

So, I dropped $50 sending the gun out to Connecticut. It came back not long after, with an outside packing note invoice saying range tested, "groups fine." So, I pulled the target out of the box and it read 25 grains of FFFG pyrodex (I've used that stuff but much prefer Goex or the Schuetzen that I am using now). So I thought well, I'm not proud, I'll use Pyrodex if necessary.

Then I unfolded the target -- They range tested it at 50 yards (which I think is pretty stupid, err, too far for what I want, but hey, they are the factory experts, right? )

The group is four shots that are a full four inches apart left and right, north and south. I can practically place my i-phone on it and not cover it. That may be OK for deer, but the squirrels in Indiana aren't that big !!!

I sent pics of the target back and told them that I could shoot groups like that all day before I sent it to them. It doesn't fix my accuracy problem. They said this meets their specs and that they did all they can, (and more for a used gun), and that they were sorry that I didn't like the process. (It's not the process, they were nice, but the results do me no good whatsoever.)

So now I am thinking about selling this (with some hesitation) hoping to get my $250 out of it . and looking at a Pedersoli .32, though I love the size of the Crockett. . and Pedersoli is expensive. . big time. . or a used Seneca or Cherokee, if I can find one. . . I guess.

I've asked Traditions about a new barrel several times, but not gotten a response . . and now, I wonder what good that would do me if their factory accuracy standards are so poor. I've been nice, but let them know this wasn't what I had hoped for . . . I don't think Traditions wants to deal with me anymore.

Any suggestions anyone has would be very welcome. . .

 

[greysmoke]

I too have a Crockett that doesn't shoot well. Like you, I've tried pretty much every load/patch/ball combination. Also, I found it was tearing patches, even setting them on fire sometimes, so I gave the bore a rigorous scrubbing with 4-O steel wool to try to take off burrs. Didn't help much. It will shoot 2-3 in a pretty good group at 25 yds. then start to scatter them. Swabbing every couple of shots seems to help but I'm no way satisfied. I hope someone gives you some good advice so I can benefit too.

 

[Zonie]

What do your fired patches look like?

If the area where the ball contacts the bore is cut or burned that would explain the poor accuracy.
(The outer edges of a fired patch always looks tattered and ragged so we are only talking about the contact area).

If the patches are cut or burned, you've found the primary cause. Now you need to find what's causing the cuts or burns.

Usually, the patches are cut by sharp rifling edges or by sharp edges at the crown where the sharp rifling grooves or sharp chamfer of the crown meets the bore.
Using some black wet/dry sandpaper pushed into the mouth of the bore with your finger and rotated back and forth will round off the sharp edges.
Beyond that, all I can say is each gun is different.

Usually there are 2 different powder/ball/patch/lube combinations that shoot well. There always seems to be at least one.

 

[ccmountainman]

I could be wrong, but I have always believed Traditions to be at the bottom of the scale for quality.
Shot a couple that belonged to friends that thought they were good deals.
I felt the accuracy was terrible also.
My original 35 yr CVA 50 cal mountain
Have a couple lymans good accuracy
Bought two T/C that I am stripping refinishing and filing / sanding the barrels smooth.
Pedersoli is good but rather pricey.
But you get what you pay for!!

 

[30gman]

My Crockett had the same problems as you guys until I started loading with 17 grains of Pyrodex or less.
Now shoots 3 and 5 shot groups touching at 25 yds.
I use a fairly dry spit patch and clean between shots with spit patch.

 

[Micah Clark]

Thanks to everyone . . . I have wondered about the crown . . . didn't know I could sand it and not screw it up . . . (if I took some sand paper to it, could it do any harm?) . . . frankly I've wanted to shoot it over snow, because I can rarely find patches for the 32 .. with my 50, it is not so hard . . . the patches look OK, but again, I've not found a lot of them. The pyrodex I've used was made when Magnum PI was still on TV . . . its about that old . . so I didn't do much with it, but didn't notice any big difference. I like the real BP stuff . . .I have used American Powder, it cleans nicely but I used it when I first began, before I found real BP, and learned more about shooting. I could try it again, but I'd think a gun should shoot well with Goex or Schutzen.

Back to the patches, I am using a felt over-powder wad to prevent patch burning, just as a precaution. . but I suppose they could be getting cut, however, my Crockett . . . being used may well have had a lot of rounds through it. . . I'd think my accuracy would be slowly improving if shooting files down any burrs. Bore looks good with a drop in light, at least as far as I can see. . . . . I haven't had the guts to run steel wool down the bore. I just don't know if I am cutting patches. I know cleaning patches aren't getting cut, but that may be totally different than shooting a round.

I am really disappointed that Traditions didn't spend more time analyzing my rifle. . and their view of "groups fine" is a little like the disconnect I feel when BHO says I am better off now that I've lost my previous health insurance. (Sorry couldn't resist.)

The Crockett is a beauty and the perfect squirrel rifle in so many ways, but mine missed the most important factor - accuracy . . .or its me. . .but I am doubting that more and more as time goes on.

Pedersoli is pricey. . . and the Mrs won't understand this "need" in the way we do.

 

[Zonie]

Something for folks to keep in mind with these little .32's is, it doesn't take much powder to get some pretty high velocities out of them.

30 grains of GOEX 3Fg powder shot the patched, 45 grain, .310 ball at 1940 fps. :shocked2:

That puts the .22 magnum to shame.


For hunting small game at ranges out to 30 yards or so, that high velocity can blow your game into many fragments.

I don't have any Lyman data for loads less than 30 grains but using some complicated math, I found that 25 grains of 3Fg powder still is pushing that little ball at about 1870 fps.
Even going to 25 grains of 2Fg powder only slowed the velocity down to 1600 fps which is still considerably faster than a .22 rimfire High Speed hollowpoint bullets 1200 fps.

 

[Micah Clark]

I agree . .I started with 15 grains of American Powder and worked up to 25 or 30.

Did the same with Goex.

I have Goex 2F . . some people seem to like that in the Crockett (I use 3f in my Lyman GPR and my revolvers ) . . . I've only shot a few rounds of it, but had the intent of trying some 2f loads.

There's a guy who seems to know this gun or small calibers well, named Hanshi or something like that. He found that the Crockett did really well with 30 FFFg and pillow ticking soaked in Hoppes BP solvent, w Hornady 310. I have used that load a lot, but still not good enough in my gun for the accuracy he gets with it. It is a hot hunting load though . . . perhaps too hot for squirrels. . . assuming I would hit them. I'd rather hit one too hard (too hot) where I aimed, than wound one with a bad or inaccurate shot.

 

[BrownBear]

Huh....

Mine shot like crazy with charges from 30 grains all the way down to 10 grains of 3f. If anything it shot better at the lower end, but no slouch at the top. I just preferred the lower vels for meat savings.

My issue was with the lock. I could get anywhere from 10 to 200 shots out of it before it broke another main spring. I was buying replacements three at a time and going through them fast. Emailed them till my face was blue without ever getting an answer in 3 months. Finally called and since the gun was a year old, they offered to sell me a new lock. On the last spring break, one piece blew out past the side plate and took a chunk of wood with it. Been sitting in a corner every since. Nasty taste in my mouth.

I was shooting homecast LEE .311 balls, ticking patches lubed with TOW mink oil grease.

I'm not sure that matters so much as one other thing I discovered. It was really sensitive to inconsistent pressure when seating the ball down on the powder. Needed to be just firm, but not hard enough to feel like you were crushing powder. And you had to concentrate on putting the same amount on from shot to shot.

Bud of mine had a GM 32 cal drop-in for his TC. When I did my part loading, the Crockett would shoot right along with his tack driver. But if I messed the loading a little, it was no contest. His GM would drive tacks no matter how he loaded it, if that's a comparison.

 

[Micah Clark]

Well, I am not too proud to deny that this may be my fault. I have worried about ramrod pressure . . the factory rod doesn't help that it is kind of short, but I would just load it near home then push it with my thumb down a bit.

If I still have it, this was my thought . . .this spring or summer to focus shot after shot on rod pressure . . . but I have done some of it to no avail . . .though again, maybe not as well as a pro.


I thought 20 to 25 of Goex 3f was a good load. I did notice a little better accuracy with ,311 balls over 310 . . will try those some more too . . . I've got a ton of .32 component through all this . hate to think what its all cost me.

I've tried .10 ox yoke wonder lube patches on up to .15 . . used dry 10 & 15 with spit. . .used 15 pillow ticking the most though with Hoppes BP lube & solvent. . . used bore butter too, but I am not a big fan of it. . . done swabbing every shot, every other shot, every 3rd shot . . fouling shot first . . . even swabbed dry patch after loaded and before a shot from bench.

Some people seem to be able to just shoot the daylights out of the Crockett right out of the box.

I am nearly at my wits end with this. . . but don't know when to throw in the towel. . or keep trying. The Traditions range fiasco didn't help me gain any knowledge at all.

 

[bpd303]

You might want to try about 5gr of corn meal or cream of wheat as a filler over the powder. It helped with accuracy in my CVA 32 squirrel rifle. Although mine is accurate without it but the groups tightened up with and using 20gr of Goex fffg.

 

[MacRob46]

I have never experienced any problems with any of my muzzle loaders like you describe. However, I have never had a low end gun. The expression caveat emptor (buyer beware) applies here. Inexpensive guns are made inexpensively - usually - and you can expect these problems. Once in awhile you can find one that is perfectly made and shoots as well as a $2000 custom rifle but they are quite few and quite far between. If the bug bites so hard that you just have to buy something to shoot and what you can afford is one of these low end guns then have at it but you can expect problems with accuracy, misfires, parts breaking or falling off and a host of other issues, some of which are unsolvable. Fortunately there is a forum for that!!

 

[Micah Clark]

Now there's something I haven't tried. Do you use a felt over wad with the cornmeal or just powder, corn meal then patch?

To put another way - powder, cornmeal, patch & ball

or

Powder, cornmeal, felt wad, patch & ball ?

 

[Micah Clark]

Well, that is the answer that is the hardest. I am not a fan of Traditions, but I think their Crockett is one of their best looking guns and seems to be a cut above some of their others in quality. . .plus, when it comes to .32 . . how many choices are there at a reasonable price? Few to none.

What i need is the most user-friendly, best made .32 I can afford . . . .it seems that may be Pedersoli . . . or a used custom made . . but there's some risk in each of those choices.

I know why I bought the Crockett . but I have since wondered why anyone would sell it, if it was performing well. Dang. . .

Oh, incidentally, not sure when Traditions began with the Crockett or if they had any quality control issues - I would have thought they would have considered this when testing my rifle . . . but it was made in 2002.

They tried to tell me it was old, I bought it used and so it was unknown and thus they can't be responsible for its accuracy now. I responded asking what their specs say accuracy should be on an 8 year old gun. . the age when I bought it. . . because i have several WW1 & WW 2 guns with bores that are almost black, and who knows how many US or German servicemen shot them and under what awful conditions, but they all have shot pretty well for me even though I bought them when they were already 60 or 70 years old. That's when I think they decided to end our discourse ASAP.

 

[bpd303]

I just load powder, filler, patched ball. I think it has something to do with getting consistent compression on the powder, but not sure. I've also used Kapok as a filler.

 

[Micah Clark]

Thanks - Sorry for sounding dumb . . . but what is Kapok?

 

[BrownBear]

I've tried .10 ox yoke wonder lube patches on up to .15

Huh, again....

Maybe another line of thought. My pillow ticking is .018, and along with that .311 ball, it's a pretty tight fit. Takes a pretty firm whack on the short starter, but with the grease lube it's not a problem to seat. I don't have to swab for quite a few shots, either. I usually do it after every half dozen or so.

Anyhoo.... If you're not too frustrated yet, you might try a .018 patch and a grease lube. Every gun's different, but that was working fine in mine and another owned by a bud down the road.

 

[htredneck]

Mine loved 15 grains of 3Fg KIK and patched with dry pillow ticking. It would fire consistent 1" or smaller groups without issue.

 

[hawkeye2]

Uniform consistent compression of the charge is great but it won't bring a 4" group down to a 1.5" group. As long as the ball is all the way down on the powder you should be getting good groups. If you like all the other aspects of the rifle why not consider having Bobby Hoyt reline the existing barrel?

Bobby Hoyt: 717-642-6696

 

[Micah Clark]

These are all good points - I can get .18 patches and try that and 311 balls. Loading is tight with most loads I've tried, though not so much with just a .10 patch and 310.

How much does relining a barrel cost? Can he also fix the gap in breech plug that hangs up cleaning patches and causes my profanity to violate my Christian faith while trying to yank the rod out w pliers ???