tubing for barrels

[DickS]

Hunting in sub-zero temperastures?
I lived for thirty years on the Hudson Bay coast, and on Baffin Island. There's a lot of hunting and shooting in sub-zero temperatures.
I have engaged in competitive target shooting - .22 metallic silhouette - at -45 degrees.
I suspect that cold weather shooting is one reason why smoothbore guns were more common than rifled ones in northern climates.
The characteristics of metals do change in extreme cold.
Anyone selling rifle barrels needs to be aware of the fact that they have no control over the conditions under which their barrels will be used, and select appropriate material for all possibilities.
12L14, extreme cold, Charpy notch, coupled with dovetails is an interesting scenario.
I've seen a number of breechloading barrels which failed, invariably as a result of a blockage. The ones that shattered are the most scary.
You wouldn't think that a .22LR would have enough oomph to blow out a jagged chunk of barrel when fired with a bullet stuck about 14" down; leaded steel in the cold.

 

[jerrywh]

There are at least two engineers on this forum. Both of them have stated that so called seamless tubing is dangerous for gun barrels. I trust Zonie. Dave Crisalli is a engineer and a graduate of the naval academy. He was a high ranking ordinance officer in the navy and builds rocket systems for the military. He says they are not safe for gun barrels. There is no professional barrel maker that uses DOM. A friend of mine named Jim Wolford made barrels from it and one blew up with only 75 or 80 grs. of ffg in it and one round ball. Jim died from cancer about 10 years ago so he can't testify. That is sufficient for me . Now I have to go do some selective gold plating

 

[jerrywh]

When I was young I worked outside at -45° 7 days a week 12 hours a day for about a week. We ran many kinds of equipment and never had any failures from brittle steel ot any kind. The only thing brittle was us. 86 proof whiskey was freezing in the bottle. One thing I learned is never drink whikey that is -45°. and don't shut off your car.

 

[Rifleman1776]

There is no professional barrel maker that uses DOM.

There are several who use it. My fowler from Jackie Brown is one of them. Some have called the builders as being from the "Corinth" (MS) school of gun building. I'm sure there are many smoothies out there in use with DOM barrels.
From the day I started in this game in 1970 I have heard how dangerous Douglas barrels are. There must be millions in use to this day. I have never heard of one blowing up without some kind of stupidity factor involved.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have engaged in competitive target shooting - .22 metallic silhouette - at -45 degrees.

And all this time we thought you were a kinda sensible guy. :haha: :rotf:

 

[jerrywh]

We are not talking about douglas barrels and Jackie Brown is not a professional barrel maker in my book.

 

[DickS]

I have engaged in competitive target shooting - .22 metallic silhouette - at -45 degrees.

And all this time we thought you were a kinda sensible guy. :haha: :rotf:

That was during the trials for the NWT Arctic Winter Games team to go to Alaska. The second day it warmed up to -25, balmy in comparison, but the wind came up to the point that the long range targets could not be seen, and some of the silhouettes were being blown off the rails. The -45 with calm wind was more pleasant.
Not a muzzleloader, probably a hammer forged barrel, but the worst burst barrel I saw was on a .30-06 Parker Hale Mauser. Fired with snow in the muzzle at -40. The barrel shattered into 7 pieces, the rifle was gone from the receiver ring foreward.
Personally, I would consider 1137 superior to 12L14 for muzzleloader barrels. If the rifle is a long range target rifle shooting elongated bullets, a barrel made from steel suitable for a centerfire rifle would be a good idea.

 

[bioprof]

There are many places in the lower 48 states where sub-zero temperatures are the norm during muzzleloader season. South Dakota has a muzzleloader deer season in January, and subzero temperatures are not unusual.

 

[razorbritches]

I get the chills just thinking about that sub zero hunting

 

[Zonie]

... Many now even refute proof testing!

Perhaps some others have but I'm not among them.

My opinion of proof testing is that it is great, if done properly.

Doing it properly involves doing the non-destructive tests following the proof test to make sure the proof test didn't introduce a crack or other flaw into the material.

To just fire an overloaded charge in a barrel and then say after it didn't blow up,
"She's a safe one now! You can bet your life on it." could be a disastrous decision.

 

[Rolfkt]

EJ Blackley and son is regarded as a high quality supplier of cast parts and pistol kits. For over 30 years they have been using true seamless tubing for barrels. The tubing is made by hot pircing a steel billet and pulling it over a series of mandrells. According to Blackley, they have not had any barrel failures. Theses barrels are included in all of their pistol kits.
http://www.blackleyandson.com/acatalog/Miscellaneous.html
http://www.blackleyandson.com/acatalog/Pistol_Kits.html

They have sold these barrels for 30 years without ever having a complaint of a blow up. Barrels made from this tubing has passed modern day inspection and proofing at English proofing houses. I don't know of any american made barrels that have been through a simulare rigoureus testing and inspection.

I have bought and turned a pistol barrelblank from Blackley. It's a 0.62 caliber barrel, OD 1" at the breech.

I plan to test it thouroly.
Starting with 35grains fffg+patch round ball and working gradualy up to 100 grains of fffg + patched round ball. If the barrel at any time shows any damage or changes in outer dimension, I will scrap it.It will be awhile til a get around to do the testing. I will post the results.

Best regards
Rolf

 

another question about barrel materials

i found this from back on '09 here on this forum
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/711968/

it appears the manufacture does not like 12L18 for gunbarrels? not sure if it is because of the way it is worked or the metallurgy?

in any case, how is one to know a good material from a bad one?

btw, i have the capability and have done long hole drilling of round stock, and could do so again. just wanted to state that so that folks are not thinking i am set on killing myself.

this for the engineer guys here on the forum

if one were to select a steel with relatively low carbon content, beit solid or DOM, either purchased fully normalized and stress relieved, or upon delivery placed it in an oven to fully anneal it, then

assume first world manufacture of the stock, with paperwork.

then finish bore to size, lap to acceptable standards, followed by a nicely filleted rifling,

would such a barrel when tested by ever increasing loads show some signs of bulging or stretch before getting to the point of failure?

there is mention of DOM used for hydraulic cylinders and there is also discussion that hydraulic systems don't see these kinds of pressures? however in use i would argue that hydraulic systems often see very high pressures.

when for instance a bone headed operator hammers a lift by loading near maximum and then bouncing the bucket. pressure spikes can be several times the rated pressure of the system and its components.

tube lock systems on man lifts and other cranes come to mind, when a hose breaks the unit begins to fall and the tube lock sets,, pressure spikes can be considerable in the cylinder.

its not uncommon to have a cracked or split cylinder over time, but i have never seen a catastrophic failure. perhaps it is because once the crack is formed the pressure drops very fast?

in my mind we can conclude the following

1. we are not going to determine if dom is acceptable for use in a gun barrel on this forum.

2. we should purchase a barrel from a barrel maker

3. if we want to make our own, we need to drill the stock and not use welded tube of any sort.

4. we should continue to delve into getting some answers?

i think i will continue to research this one

bob g

 

[jerrywh]

Well now we are talking about special requests.
Joe would make me one out of wood if I asked him.
I thought we wanted to know what the full time professional barrel makers used commonly for muzzle loading barrels.

 

[FL-Flinter]

 

[jerrywh]

WHAT?

 

[FL-Flinter]

Sorry Jerry, that was not specifically directed at you, I forgot about the automatic response tagging.

Coffee & popcorn enjoying the show.

 

[jerrywh]

Muzzloading barrel makers use 12L14 or 1137 mostly because it is perfect for muzzleloading barrels and it is easy on tools like reamers. Not because it is cheaper. Ask them and see. Like most guys the age of my grandsons your brilliant.
Lets just say you win and forget it. OK?

 

why is 12l14 and 1137 perfect for black powder barrels? aside from ease of machining.

i wonder why this is so when there is statements to the contrary from at least one steel manufacture, as it relates to 12L14 anyway.

and there are several comments made all over hell and back about not using leaded steel for barrels?

so which is it? i see lots of folks making barrels out of this stuff, and at least on manufacture of the product stating not to use it for barrels and others stating the same.

i am asking because i rank somewhere between being dumb as a bag of hammers and the glowing brilliance of your grandkids. ok, maybe more to the dumb side of the scale, however i do want to know.

anyone for popcorn?

bob g

 

[Flintfan69]

Muzzloading barrel makers use 12L14 or 1137 mostly because it is perfect for muzzleloading barrels and it is easy on tools like reamers. Not because it is cheaper.

Improved maintainability does mean it is cheaper, regardless of the price of the raw material. If you can increase your RPM and feed rates by 20%-40% by using one particular material over another, you are significantly decreasing your shop costs per hour.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Like most guys the age of my grandsons your brilliant.

Jerry,

I'm also growing a little weary of your constant insuations that youth equals ignorance when members question you. It's just bad form.

How about educating us, the misguided youth, instead of casting asperions. What are the facts in on this subject?

Enjoy, J.D.