Weight and Balance for Offhand Rifle

[LME]

The schuetzen rifles were designed to be the ideal rifle for off hand shooting. They are muzzle heavy and weigh about 14 to 17 pounds. They typically have lots of drop, a hooked butt plate, and a palm rest. They are also just about useless for anything but target shooting. For a long rifle I think the best you will get for offhand shooting would be something with a crescent butt plate, swamped barrel, and some cast off.

Why would a swamped barrel be better than a standard barrel?

 

[Ridgerun]

For 40 years the only rifle i shot was a Sharon Hawken, .54 caliber, 32 inch 15/16….very muzzle heavy. Recently I built a Chambers Isaac Haines rifle, .54 cal, 38 inch swamped barrel….and I could not believe the difference in handling. The Haines rifle is sleek, handles beautifully, swings to the shoulder with ease, and is perfectly balanced as a hunting rifle. Weight is about 7.5 pounds.

 

[smoothshooter]

I'm posting this in the flintlock section because I'm thinking about flintlock longrifles in particular. Is there any general consensus regarding the best weight for an offhand rifle? Also where should the balance point be? How do folks feel about LOP, drop in the comb, or cast off?
I understand that it is subjective and depends on the shooter. I also know that I'll get (good) advice to handle a lot of guns and see what I like. My problem is that I don't have access to a lot of guns to handle.
So I'm hoping to start a general discussion about the properties and characteristics of the longrifles that shooters use and like. I would like to learn from your collective wisdom in this area. I've searched the forum with limited results related to what I'm looking for.

I HIGHLY recommend a swamped barrel.
How the guys that inlet those things into a stock properly do it I can’t imagine.
I’m convinced that if you have the skills to do that, there is no facet of woodworking you cannot master rather quickly. You would also have to have the patience of Job.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

First off any factory made rifle or kit is a compromise of what someone decided was an average size shooter. Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of us are not that average size. LOP bend your arm at the elbow and place a yardstick on your forearm then place your trigger finger on it like you were touching the trigger that should be your ideal LOP for a target rifle. If your rifle is intended primarily for hunting take a 1/2" off to compensate for the heavier clothing you'll be wearing. I like a 1/4" of cast off to help line up the sights easier. Drop at comb, target shooters tend to use taller sights. In target shooting your barrel can heat up then you start getting heat mirage with traditional low sights. So you leave your comb a little higher so that it is easier to line up with the higher sights. The barrel I like a heavier barrel. I have used swamped barrels but they don't seem to give me any advantage. given that plus they are harder to inlet and cost about 50% more I seldom use them. I like to build a Berks county style rifle, They tended to continue using the wider heavier butts longer which help to balance out the straight barrels nicely. The longest barrel I have used was 42" So with the trend today of longer barrels the swamped barrel may have an advantage there, But I don't think those longer barrels were intended to be shot offhand. In the book Berks County Longrifles there is one listed as a typical hunting rifle with a 72" barrel, no way that was shot offhand.

 

[akroguy]

..... One of my nicest shooting Ml’s with superb balance/weight is my Kibler Colonial, 58 cal.8.5#

Love to see that! Reported balance of the .58 was a driving factor in my decision to order one.

 

[billraby]

A swamped barrel is lighter and balances much better. The layout for a swamped barrel takes an extra half hour or so. After that the inletting no more difficult than a straight barrel.

 

[hanshi]

Nothing beats a swamped barrel for hunting and nothing beats a straight barrel for off hand. Back when I could still see I had a 9+ lb rifle with a straight 42" barrel. I could shoot that rifle off hand about as well as I could shoot most other rifles from a sitting position. Mounted and aimed the muzzle of that rifle moved so slowly it set like a rock and without the movement normally expected.

 

[LME]

^^ This right here.^^

If you're not a competition shooter and never delve into this stuff, you may spend your life thinking "I can't shoot" when the real issue is you've never learned how. We spend time emphasizing the front post because it really is the most important. You also need to understand sight picture and alignment.

As for the perfect rifle, I'd say that depends on the build of the person and what type of shooting they're planning on doing with it. A dedicated benchrest/chunk gun is a non starter for offhand. In my opinion, length of pull, cast, drop, all the measurements used to create a custom gun, are wasted if you haven't learned to shoot properly first. For me, if the stock dimensions are correct, I want it to balance a tad front heavy, weigh about 10-11lbs and have either a set trigger or a 3lb single stage.

Very good information!

 

[Josephg]

I like a heavy rifle, a light trigger and it helps when the stock fits me. Oh, and a short hammer throw.

 

[doubleset]

I like a heavy rifle, a light trigger and it helps when the stock fits me. Oh, and a short hammer throw.

I used to like a heavy rifle too -- up to a few years ago when I was cleaning it at home after a long match, bent down to take it out of the gun vise and felt this incredible pain in my lower back and leg. After various attempts at treating that, and then the neuro-surgery that fixed it, I don't like to shoot the heavy guns so much -- especially for a decent period, offhand at targets. The little .32 is real good for me.

 

[Josephg]

I used to like a heavy rifle too -- up to a few years ago when I was cleaning it at home after a long match, bent down to take it out of the gun vise and felt this incredible pain in my lower back and leg. After various attempts at treating that, and then the neuro-surgery that fixed it, I don't like to shoot the heavy guns so much -- especially for a decent period, offhand at targets. The little .32 is real good for me.

I never clean my rifle...........

 

[doubleset]

I never clean my rifle...........

Probably the safest way to go. Just shoot it until it's fully clogged with powder fouling, toss it in the trash, and get another. Reduces medical bills and is good for the economy too.

 

[sportster73hp]

Swamped barrel to make it lighter and still muzzle heavy . Balanced at forward hand to control the weight. Good smooth light trigger , single or set . AND a fast lock. The sooner the ball leaves the barrel the less chance i have to mess up the shot.
LOP , drop , or cast depend on the shooter.
I have used an Invest arms percussion, Kibler colonial with Davis lock ,now a Kibler smr with his lock. Best scores are with the smr.
I understand the flinchlock mentality looking at the front sight don’t see the flash

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

in a .50, with round balls for projectiles; I like a rifle with a 30-35" tapered barrel (1" down to .75"), weight between 6.25 and 7.5 lbs, with a balance point approx 4-5" in front of the bow of the trigger guard, LOP of between 13.25" and 13.5", with approx. 2-2.2" of drop at the comb (I prefer a parallel comb), I don't worry much about cast (I find I don't need it, others do). I am 5'8", approx. 18.5" across the shoulders (arms down at my sides), arm length (finger tip to shoulder) of 28", index finger tip to elbow of 17.5", approx. 7 inches between top of the shoulder and corner of eye (standing straight).

Growing up, we never went to a "range" and never rested guns, unless we were sighting them in/ load development (seed bag or bag full of old rags on a tailgate) or a post/tree was available. Everything was done off hand, we didn't use tree-stands or blinds; we always spot-and-stalk (my younger brother did buy a tree-stand when he was younger, but it rarely gets used) for everything from 50yd groundhogs, 150-200yd deer, 100yd coyote, or my 165-170yd groundhog (with a .22, I might add, 1 shot, held about 18" over his head (he was standing) from a 110yd zero, got him in the bottom of his ribcage lol) (when I first got into the forums, I was amazed at how short of range people considered "ethical" or "practical"). With the exception of 2 rifles, all of my family's arms are open sighted. Supporting hand goes just in front of the trigger guard, both elbows are tucked into your ribs. holding a gun this way completely changes how different weights and balance points feel, with almost all of the common commercially available traditional ML guns being excessively muzzle heavy (especially the straight barreled ones without lead in the stock).

For a light bullet rifle (sub 350gr .50 bullets), I'll keep it around the weight of a ball-rifle; but with a heavy bullet-rifle (you'll appreciate it with 600-700gr .50 bullets), I go up to 9-10 lbs by increasing the barrel dimensions (keep the same taper), and add a little weight to the butt. If you "had" to have some 40+ inch barrel, you would increase weight to around 7.25-8.5lbs. Same method for everything from .32 up to 10 bore shotguns. In .32, that can get me a 35" barrel rifle down around the 6lbs range for a bullet rifle, or if it's purely a squirrel gun/ (I don't like that long of a barrel with such light loads, you start to get excessive fouling at the muzzle), down around 4.75 lbs (lighter barrel and stock). .58's would range from 7.5lbs for a ball-gun... all the way up to 11-12 lbs for a BPE-type gun (with 175gr charges and 625gr bullets, you want the weight). Balance and fit are most important when it comes to an off-hand gun, with just enough weight to keep the recoil tolerable with your max loads (especially in a hunting/general purpose gun you'll be hauling around all day). As far as dedicated off-hand target guns go... move the balance point forward 2" and make it as heavy as you can hold up for the relay you'll be shooting (you have to set it down at a bench to load between shots anyway).

 

[Kansas Kid]

My opinion of the perfect off hand rifle is an Issac Haines style, particularly the Jim Chambers 50 cal B weight Rice bbl with a good 3lb single trigger. Also a similar rifle with an A weight 40 Green Mountain bbl is a fine choice.
Don’t get sucked into a set trigger that’s best used for shooting off of a rest/bench.

Shot a Rendezvous last weekend with the 50 and took first place against 25-30 cap guns.

 

[nkbj]

Nothing beats a swamped barrel for hunting and nothing beats a straight barrel for off hand. Back when I could still see I had a 9+ lb rifle with a straight 42" barrel. I could shoot that rifle off hand about as well as I could shoot most other rifles from a sitting position. Mounted and aimed the muzzle of that rifle moved so slowly it set like a rock and without the movement normally expected.

Was about to type about inertia resisting movement of the piece and how a longer barrel makes for more resistance so yeah, what he said.

 

[Josephg]

I like a heavy rifle, a light trigger and it helps when the stock fits me. Oh, and a short hammer throw.

I just re-read the OPs first post. When using a flintlock I prefer a light rifle. No sense missing the target and hurting my back at the same time, lol.

 

[1BadDart]

If I ever get my stock and hardware back, I'll start on my .40. Its purpose is 25 yard off hand matches, full stock Virginia style with a straight 42" Rice 7/8" barrel. I have no idea how it will hold, the plan is if it's too muzzle heavy I'll start cutting it back, if it's light a brass or steel ramrod will be used, possibly some lead in the butt stock.