What Finish

[bads1buell]

Need some advice on a Walnut stock with linseed oil applied to it. I have a Walnut smoothbore that came in the white with about five coats of linseed oil on it. I would like to know from the experts what I should do to seal the wood from the elements. Tru Oil, Tung Oil or something else.

 

[Col. Batguano]

The US military arsenals used real (cold pressed) linseed oil. That has no varnish in it. It won't give you much in the way of moisture protection, but it oxidizes over time to give you that nice reddish USGI look. It can be refreshed over time. Lots and lots of discussion of this and finishing techniques on the CMP forum.

Boiled linseed oil has some polomerized varnish in it, and will give you SOME moisture protection, but does not oxidize as well, or takes much longer. Because it has some varnish in it, it's tougher to refresh the finish, and easy to put it on too thick and get a gooey mess that will take several years to cure. the good news to that is that it comes off pretty easy with mineral spirits or turpentine.

Tung oil as sold today generally has more varnish in it (it's an alkyd varnish), and will give you a more waterproof finish, and little to no oxidation and color change over the years.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
First, understand that if two finishes can be thinned with the same solvent, they will almost alway be compatible together. Therefore, you can mix finishes depending on your objectives. I believe Tru-Oil is a polymerized linseed oil finish. Polymerized means that it is heat treated to hasten drying. It does not necessarily mean that there are driers or varnishes added, but there can be depending on the product. Several top builders that I know use marine spar varnish, which can be made to look like period oil-varnishes and is very water resistant. Several other top makers that I know use Tried and True Oil Varnish with very nice results. My finish of choice is polymerized tung oil made by Sutherland-Welles. It is simply tung oil that is heat treated to hasten drying. Tung oil is also very water resistant, far better than any linseed oil derivative. I like the polymerized oils because they can produce a low sheen "in the wood" oil finish and be built up to look more like a glossier varnish. Someone will inevitably post something saying they used linseed, boiled linseed, or tung oil and it took forever to dry. They are not describing polymerized oil finishes. Others will mention Formby's tung oil finish (which is a wiping varnish, not an oil finish, but is not bad) or Minwax tung oil finish. Neither of those products are what I described and neither penetrate as deeply or are as weather resistant as polymerized tung oil.

dave

 

[bads1buell]

Thanks Dave,
Which one do you use made by Sutherland?

Original low lustre or just the sealer

 

[bads1buell]

Also what should I use to clean the stock with before applying the tung oil? The stock has a coat of wax and some oil on it.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I usually use the medium luster although for some guns I use the high gloss and then rub it back. I do that mainly when making a 19th century English sporting gun. You don't need the sealer. You can make a sealer by diluting the regular oil with 25-50% mineral spirits and use that for the first few coats. You might just rub the stock with some mineral spirits to prepare for the oil. Hopefully, you don't have too much wax in the wood because that might retard the finish from drying hard. It might be wise to buy a small bottle of Tru-oil that is cheap and apply it behind the butt plate or some other inconspicuous spot to see if it hardens properly. If it does, get the more expensive tung oil and have at it. Word of warning, after coating the stock with thinned oil to seal it, make sure you wipe off the excess. Then, when you apply the unthinned oil for the top coats, put it on very sparingly, let it soak in for 15-20 minutes and then wipe off the excess. Each coat will be dry in about 5-6 hours so use lots of thin coats rather than few thick ones. I usually dab oil at 10-12 places on the stock with a brush and then rub it in with my hands until it starts to get sticky. Then I wipe the stock with a rag dampened with a little mineral spirits to remove any excess. Let it dry, and repeat until you have the look you want. Also, one disadvantage to the polymerized tung oil is that it can gel if there is too much air in the can. Get some chunks of glass used to support flowers in vases, marbles, or small pebbles. As you use up the oil, put the chunks or pebbles in the can to take up air space before putting on the lid. Good luck.

dave

 

[Artificer]

Also, one disadvantage to the polymerized tung oil is that it can gel if there is too much air in the can. Get some chunks of glass used to support flowers in vases, marbles, or small pebbles. As you use up the oil, put the chunks or pebbles in the can to take up air space before putting on the lid. Good luck.

dave

Dave, I am not sure if the container is tight enough, but if it is, the easier way to make up for the air space is just turn the container upside down to store it after you open the container. Then you always have clean/fresh liquid at the top when you re-open it.
Gus

 

[Artificer]

I use Tru Oil after comparing it to Linseed Oil, BLO, Pure Tung Oil, Polymerized Tung Oil, Danish Oil, etc., etc. The comparisons were done on many walnut and birch stocks that were finished in Virginia and then used on Okinawa, Hawaii, Southern California, Camp Perry, Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, and other places. Tru Oil dries very shiny, but you can knock the shine back to a dull luster with the "Scotch Brite" Type Abrasive Pads found in Hardware stores that are roughly the equivalent of OOO and OOOO Steel Wool.. You find these in the sand paper section, normally. (I COMPLETELY gave up using steel wool after these came out!! No more steel wool hairs stuck in a finish that you don't see until too many more coats of finish are applied.) Then rub HARD with a terrycloth towel to buff the finish out.

I tried using two or three types of the better Marine Spar Varnishes, but just did not like the look of them.

Here is an interesting comparisons of Oil Finish. Now he does not rub the finishes hard into the wood as one should do, but still this will give some comparisons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDiN9TCZkHk

Gus

 

[dave_person]

Hi Gus,
Thanks for the Youtube link but he did not use polymerized tung oil. He did like polymerized linseed oil - namely Tru-oil. Now consider this - the boiled linseed oil was his softest least hard finish and tung oil was better. Similarly, Polymerized tung oil is superior to polymerized linseed oil (Tru Oil) because it is as or more water resistant, does not darken over time, and can be built up slowly. I don't use Tru-Oil because it creates a glossy finish too quickly. I want more control and I don't want to have to rub it back to lessen the gloss, particularly if I have carving on the gun. Trying to rub back a gloss around carving is a nightmare and often the crisp edges of the carving get rounded in the process. With the polymerized tung oil, I can create a glossy finish and rub it back or polish it like glass, I can create a dull "in the wood" oil finish, or I can do something in between. I agree, Gus, with your opinion of spar varnish. I don't care for how it looks but I recently saw two nice guns made by Mark Whelan who told me he used a good grade of spar varnish. Both guns were relatively plain without a lot of carving. Before I started using polymerized tung oil alone, I mixed pure or polymerized tung oil with polyurethane varnish and turpentine. The mix was 25% tung, 25% polyurethane, and 50% turpentine. That mix made a nice weather resistant finish that could also be built up slowly. Later, I found I could achieve the same results with just the polymerized tung oil. Take care Gus,

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi Gus,
Thanks for the note about turning the can upside down. My late wife, Gail, used to do that until she once turned over a can that was not sealed well. We had tung oil leaking out of the cabinet. Knowing, how often I do similar mindless screw ups, I figure I am safer using the marbles and glass. Thanks Gus.

dave

 

[Vaino]

My first build had numerous coats of hardware store BLO which didn't dry and both my stupidity and impatience were responsible for the following episode.

Took the LR deer hunting and the 2nd day it started to rain. Had a "calves knee" so wasn't at all concerned about the gun firing, but after a couple of hrs, the stock became sticky. So sticky and gooey that I continually used a hanky to rub off the BLO. After awhile I was down to bare wood, but at least it wasn't messy.

My stupidity was displayed by even using BLO in the first place and my impatience could be overlooked because BLO doesn't ever dry.

So....henceforth I used some products that sealed the stock, dried in a reasonable amount of time, were very easy to apply, yielded a low gloss finish w/o any further rubbing and looked as if there wasn't even any finish on the wood.

A few years back hunted elk in Colorado w/ a Hawken that had the above finish and it drizzled or rained 7 days out of 9 and the stock was impervious to the water. This was a good test for a gunstock finish......Fred

 

[Dave K]

At one time I used BLO. I was told it was traditional so I went that route. Since then ALL guns have been stripped of that finish because I think it is a wretched mess. Others use other products, but for me it is Tru-Oil. I can get any luster I want by dragging the finish when near dry, to high gloss. I do have some original guns here, so unless someone can prove to me it is BLO, my mind is made up. The finish is just to hard to be BLO. YMMV.

 

[bads1buell]

I just ordered some of Sutherland-Welles polymerized tung oil medium lustre. I will post pics when completed.

 

[Artificer]

Dave,

Thank you for the added information.

Please understand I am automatically skeptical of any natural oil product that claims to be waterproof. Perhaps it is highly water resistant, but waterproof means no water vapor at all goes through the finish into or out of the wood stock.

My experience with Oil Finishes on gun stocks is by a large majority on National Match grade rifles used in and including up to the National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio for many years while wood stocks were still used. Tru Oil gave the most water resistance finish of any Natural Oil product. Even slight amounts of difference in humidity will affect the accuracy of rifles in that competition from shrinking and swelling of the stock, so any product superior to Tru Oil would have been well known. (There was/is a product that is virtually waterproof made by Sherman Williams and called Fullerplast that was used by some, but that was not an oil finish.) So the first question I have to ask is: Is the polymerized Tung Oil product you are referring to a fairly new product?

Please understand, as a child in the late 50’s or very early 60’s, I WELL remember how excited my WWI Veteran Grandpa got when two part clear epoxy glues first came out for wood workers. He glued up almost innumerable pieces of scrap wood and delighted in demonstrating how the wood fibers broke before the glue joint, when the pieces were forced apart. He saw many advances in his lifetime and I have the double boiler glue pot Grandpa learned to make hide glue in as a child when his Dad taught him. So from a very early age, I learned newer technology indeed could be better than what was commonly used or known at any particular time period, before the new stuff came out.

I can certainly understand wanting to use a product that is better around wood carving, though that was something I only rarely dealt with when using natural Oil finishes.

My next question is if the Polymerized Tung Oil you recommend is the regular or the exterior grade as they sell it in both grades?

Next question: If you use stain, do you stain the wood before or after the first sealing coat of Polymerized Tung Oil?

Next question: Are there any pitfalls you have run across as you learned to use this product?

I hope you will pardon me for being a bit skeptical and I certainly mean no offense, but I’ve seen a lot of products that claimed to be better than Tru Oil over the years and were not. However, I am open minded enough that you definitely have me intrigued. Thanks again for your thoughts.

My sincerest condolences on the passing of your late wife. I cannot imagine how hard that must have been. I truly hope the Good Lord will comfort you, until you once more rejoin her.

Gus

 

[dave_person]

Hi and thank you Gus,
In my posts I never claim it is waterproof, only water resistant. And it is. My guns have been (including my barrel treatments)prooved in some of the worst conditions possible, 200 inches of rain annually and sea spray in Southeast Alaska. But the truth is that, with proper care and application, Tru-oil, boiled linseed oil-varnish mix, tung oil-polyurethane mix, can work also in that environment, if cared for. The polymerized tung oil was just better in the hard conditions I experienced. However, I could make Tru-oil and even BLO work just fine if I simply paid it the proper attention.

Gus, on another matter, do you know my brother, John Person, who use to be one of the best shooters in NSSA?

dave

 

[Artificer]

Hi Dave and thanks for the reply.

When I wrote about the claim that Polymerized Tung Oil being "waterproof," it was not from your writing, but from reading the information on their site. Sorry I wasn't more specific and I meant nothing against what you wrote.

If the stuff works well in your environment, then it must be good.

Your brother's name sounds familiar, though I can't put a face to it. I knew MANY NSSA Shooters at the Nationals at Fort Shenandoah, but it was mostly by their faces. (Heck, I had a hard time keeping track of the names of my Team Members, as I did not compete there.) I worked guns in what was originally called "The Navy Arms Booth" that was owned by Donald "Bucky" Malson. I was the only "gunsmith" who did trigger jobs on Smith Carbines on Sutlers' Row during the shoots, for example, but most of the work I did was on Muskets with some Revolver work. I worked guns there 1974-6, 1980-88, 1995-roughly 2003 or so. (The Marine Corps sent me cross country or across the world on the other years in there. Grin.) So if your brother was active in those times, I'm SURE I at least saw him a few times and probably spoke to him on more than one occasion. Anyone who shot there for more than a couple years, I recognized them shoot after shoot, though I normally did not remember their names in between the Spring and Fall Nationals.

Gus

 

[dave_person]

Hi Gus,
John was very active during those years. He was national aggregate champion several times. He also was a member on the international team with Bucky Malson for a few years. John has a distinctive "handle bar" mustache. I think I may have already told you the story of when I first met Bucky. John brought me over to his house. At the time I worked as a biologist for NJ Fish, Game, and Wildlife. Bucky said he had little regard for "biologists". I said I had little regard for arrogant pricks. We got along very well after that.

dave

 

[Artificer]

Hi Gus,
John was very active during those years. He was national aggregate champion several times. He also was a member on the international team with Bucky Malson for a few years. John has a distinctive "handle bar" mustache. I think I may have already told you the story of when I first met Bucky. John brought me over to his house. At the time I worked as a biologist for NJ Fish, Game, and Wildlife. Bucky said he had little regard for "biologists". I said I had little regard for arrogant pricks. We got along very well after that.

dave

YES, from this description I DO remember your brother! How is he? Also, I remember Bucky recounting the story of when he met you. He got quite a kick out of your retort and told it a few times over the years! :grin:

In the 80's, Bucky's Team Unit the 2nd New Jersey, was losing members to age and people moving out of the State. They were afraid they might lose their Team Status. I was not required to join a Team as I didn't compete, but I told them I would join as a way of "paying back" the NSSA for all the good times I had at Fort Shenandoah. Then they said, "Gus, you realize we have to get you in a Team picture to show you pass the authenticity requirements." I said, "No problem, I can come in a CSMC Private or Sergeant's Uniform or as a Captain of my Virginia Infantry Unit." They laughed and said they would take the picture with me in the center and everyone else pointing their musket at me to show I was their prisoner.

Two days later, someone dropped off a new Federal Sack Coat and Kepi at the Cabin for delivery to another member who was quite a bit larger than I. I quickly got an impish idea to borrow it. I buttoned the Sack Coat up and pulled it over my head with the buttons on my back side. Then I put the Kepi on backwards and showed up at an informal Team Meeting that way, though I stood in the back where most couldn't see me. When they finished business, I told them I was ready to get my Team picture taken and walked to the front of the gathering. Some one said, "Gus, eh, I think you have it on backwards!" I replied, "Really? No kidding? Gee when the odds were close to even this is what we saw when Federals confronted us during the War." You can imagine the cat calls back and forth, but everyone was laughing heartily. So I became the "Token Rebel" in the 2nd NJ.

Gus

 

[Billnpatti]

My personal choice would be Tru-Oil. It is comparable with BLO but gives a much more durable and protective finish.

 

[dave_person]

My God Gus, That is a great story! Oh, I hope to meet you one of these days. I think we would get along great!!

dave