What for Wad or Filler ?

[Loyalist Dave]

So I've been trying to get my rifle to stop cutting patches. It didn't used to but all of a sudden it started.
I'd get two or three good holes in the patches, and of course, accuracy suffered. For some reason it seems to happen up near the muzzle.
I've tried polishing the edges of the lands, and got rid of the patches getting two or three large holes.

NOW I get teeny tiny holes, 6, nice and symmetric, or the patches shred.

So out of six shots, I'll get three touching 2" high at 50 yards, which would be fine for hunting out to 100 yards (and what I expect), BUT I also get three fliers, some up, some left or right. NOT too far off, but far enough that I'd not trust a shot past 50 yards IF I trusted one at 50.

I use a .530 ball, 70 grains of 3Fg, and pillow ticking and beeswax/lard lube, OR pre-lubed .015 patches.... same results with either.

I've tried a .520 ball with the same patches..., accuracy was poor, and I tried a thicker patch, but then the holes appeared...,

So the only thing that I can think of to try is some sort of "filler" or wad.

What do you folks think? Should I try 20 grains of corn meal on top of the powder, or wasp nest or a dry felt wad? Maybe something else?

LD

 

[mooman76]

Maybe the crown cutting the patches? Try a couple things, whatever you have available until you find what works.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Don’t rule out old patch material either.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Linen might be a more substantial patch material. It is difficult to find tightly woven linen and made of 100% flax.

No matter how insignificant, what changed?

I wouldn't rule out taking a good hard look at your crown.

 

[Art Caputo]

I would be inclined to find out what changed. It’s strange that the problem didn’t exist initially. Have you tried seating and removing the patched ball with a ball puller attached, then closely inspecting the integrity of the patch?
Otherwise, I think I would take a close look possible changes in one or more of the following;
-Powder
-Ball
-Patch(weave, thickness, size, material)
-Lube
-Barrel(rifling)

 

[rich pierce]

As mentioned above cutting can happen because:
1. Patch gets cut when short started (fix crown or get tougher patches)
2. Patch gets cut ramming home (try lapping th bore or get tougher patches)
3. Patch gets cut by gas cutting when gun is fired (try tighter patch/ball combo or tougher patches).
I have only used corn meal in original barrels that had a bad powder chamber; to keep the ball from seating that far.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

My question is why 3f in a 54 cal, and why 70 grains?

recrowning sound like the ticket.

 

[Grenadier1758]

In my case, 3fg, 70 grain GOEX is very accurate in my 54 cal HF 1803.

 

[megasupermagnum]

The only time I've had a wad stop patch tearing was in my TC Scout pistol. Being a handgun, I needed a load that wasn't quite as tight fitting as the rifle. Patches had a hole in the dead center of them, not big by any means, but visible hole. I found that two 1/8" felt wads completely cured the problem. My Renegade will tear patches as you describe, essentially cuts around the perimeter of the ball. My problem was I was not getting the accuracy I wanted, and kept trying tighter, and tighter fits. It was loading these very tight combo's that was doing it. I also found that slapping the short starter could do it, where as an even push to start often kept the patch in good shape.

What makes you think it happens up near the muzzle? Is there any chance your balls are either larger diameter than before, or of a harder alloy?

 

[smo]

You might try a smaller diameter ball and a thinner patch as well

It sounds to me as if the patching may be the issue as mentioned above.

Is it old material you’ve had for awhile? Or is it new material that’s possibly thicker?

Does your bore still look rust free?

I have used a pinch of wasp nest before as a buffer.

 

[rafterob]

If he is cutting patches we don't need to question his load. Cutting of the patch is going to be a bore issue or a starting issue. New jag? New short starter? A tight jag can cut the patching as it is being started into the barrel.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Do you have an endoscope to look at the bore for any pitting? One of our club members had a rifle that was a consistent winner at the local meat shoots. Accuracy suddenly just wasn't there. He could feel a rough spot in the barrel with a tight patch. At one of our club gun builders' work and chat sessions we got out the endoscope and found a group of pits at the breech about where the patched ball sat on the powder. The rest of the bore was smooth. About 1 1/2" of barrel was cut off, the barrel was rebreeched, pins moved, and accuracy was restored.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

OK so check the crown...,
Do a detailed check of the interior of the barrel, with a ball on a ball puller and with a patch to see if I can determine where the cutting happens, and use an endoscope to visually inspect the bore...
Maybe it's old fabric and going to a new batch, or even to linen instead of cotton
Filler really isn't going to help...
Got It

In response to some of the other questions, resistance lessens slightly after a few inches near the muzzle.
I get the cutting of the patch whether I use a short starter or not.
When I polished about 4" into the barrel, where the resistance had not yet lessened, the result was I went to 6 tiny, symmetric holes, instead of the two or three large holes. So still could be crown...
It's likely not corrosion, because I don't think it would produce symmetric damage to cause symmetric holes in the patches. Maybe I'm wrong. The endoscope should help with that.

My question is why 3f in a 54 cal, and why 70 grains?

Well I use 3Fg as I use the same horn to prime and for the main charge. I used 70 grains of 3Fg in my Pedersoli Frontier, and so tried it in my .54 when it arrived (barrel is Colerain). It shot very well with that same powder charge, so I kept it. It's 10 grains above the legal minimum in my state as well, for hunting deer. Finally..., it has proven many times over to be just fine for harvesting deer.

I hope the breech isn't roached.....,

LD

 

[mooman76]

Filler may help, it oten does but it doesn't solve the patch cutting problem.

 

[hanshi]

From my experiences with flintlock weirdness I'll just mention these possibilities.

1. The crown might need polishing/rounding/smoothing.
2. The patch material might be weak for some reason or another.
3. I use tight loads and strong patch material. .024" heavy canvas and sometimes .018" mattress ticking.
4. An op wad can work wonders. I mostly use a felt op wad for hunting; but was surprised when
I found a ball-size wad of toilet paper did at least as well.
5. Actually the small hole problem sounds like the crown needs polishing; the bore should already be
well worn and smooth.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

From my experiences with flintlock weirdness I'll just mention these possibilities.

1. The crown might need polishing/rounding/smoothing.
2. The patch material might be weak for some reason or another.
3. I use tight loads and strong patch material. .024" heavy canvas and sometimes .018" mattress ticking.
4. An op wad can work wonders. I mostly use a felt op wad for hunting; but was surprised when
I found a ball-size wad of toilet paper did at least as well.
5. Actually the small hole problem sounds like the crown needs polishing; the bore should already be
well worn and smooth.

RIGHT, well endoscoped the bore this morning. Saw a single, tiny spot that might be a pit right down at the breech, but luckily nothing that looked like the problem. So it's check the crown time, and test some other sources of patching material. I might give the .520's a try again with a thick patch.

LD

 

[appalichian hunter]

from your post I would assume the rifle is .54 cal. what type rifling is the bore, not knowing the cal. or rifling type, first question would be has the rifle been dropped or perhaps knocked over (these things happen without our realizing it) perhaps a bump at the range, check the crown, it could be a very small nick that is very hard to see with the naked eye use a magnifying glass, you stated that you polished the first 4 in. of the barrel If no damage there I would suggest with the .530 ball try a 20 thousands cotton pillow ticking (new material and washed) try a different lube depending on the rifling this will be a tight load, use a ball starter with nothing on the starting end just wood to ball. start the ball at least 1/2 in. into the bore and cut the patch at the muzzle, make sure it is a flat cut with a very sharp knife. Something changed and I would bet it is at the muzzle.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

OK so she is still cutting patches, sometimes...,
I tried my standard load, but cut the patches at the muzzle and did not use a short starter, and was using striped cotton ticking material that mic's to .016 and beeswax and olive oil lube applied to the side of the patch that touches the rifling...,

I shot two rounds and my son who was spotting my target through the spotting scope told me I was hitting "low". (I thought too low to be good..., should've asked "how low?" )

So I switched from a "lollipop hold" to center of the disk, and the two holes at the top of the bull are the last two shots. That's a 3" bull, and the holes are roughly 3/4" apart in the pair of groups...

I tried Hanshi's idea and shot a different target but used a piece of toilet paper between the powder and the patched ball, and saw no significant difference, but a slighly larger group (but the light was fading due to a storm). Then I tried a thick, linen patch with a .520 ball started with my thumb (the pillow ticking was too thin, so I opted not to test it with the .520), and a third target. The .520 group was terrible on that third target...,

So back in the summer, cutting the patches at the muzzle and using the same lube and load..., the group was manure-tastic, and the patches were cut or shredded...., This thread began with the next range session, and now I get this result yesterday.

what type rifling is the bore, not knowing the cal. or rifling type, .... start the ball at least 1/2 in. into the bore and cut the patch at the muzzle, make sure it is a flat cut with a very sharp knife. Something changed and I would bet it is at the muzzle.

So it's round-bottom rifling, 1:56 twist. I omitted as I wrote before, the short starter, and merely pushed the ball in tight to just below the muzzle, then cut the patches. So you're right it's gotta be the the edges of the muzzle crown.

Thanks everybody for the input. I will look very hard at the crown and the sides of the lands at that point.

LD

 

[hanshi]

LD, the barrel I have is a Rice, round groove .50; rifling depth is .016". This requires that I use a pretty thick patch in order to prevent blow-by. I relieved the crown to allow easier seating with a .023" canvas or denim patches. Not experiencing any burned or cut patches with this particular rifle. But years ago I did have a .50 with more standard square cut grooves. As a cure for blown patches I simply seated an unlubed patch on top of the powder and had no blown patches after that.

 

[appalichian hunter]

With the round bottom rifling a .530 ball and 20 thousands patch should load tight but not so tight that it is impossible to drive the ball home, Sure sounds like a small burr at the crown. Is the crown relieved if not I would suggest that. Keep working it is a small problem but a PIA.