Wheel weight lead, again.

[musketman]

Well people, I have a few e-mails off to the chem-labs of this nations top collages on the subject of extracting lead from wheel weights.

I will post the results as I get them.

I asked if there is a way to extract the lead only from the wheel weight alloy, (95.5% Lead, .5% Tin, 4% Antimony)

I posed that since tin is magnetic, maybe when the wheel weight alloy is melted, I could stick a magnet into the melt and extract the tin this way.

The magnet would be cleaned of all water and pre-heated to advoid explosions.

I would do this using a 10' pole, mostly because I'm chicken... I've been splashed by 450 degree salt before, it's not fun, 700 degree lead would be worse. I will also be using all safty gear at my disposial.

Again, I will post the results.

I will not try this until I get some feed back from Yale and Harvard and a few of the other universities I contacted.

Any thoughts, coments?

 

[Haggis]

I was thinking that the best way to use wheel weights was to dilute them: ie; mix three or four parts of pure lead to one part WW.

Of course one could wrap the outside of the cast iron smelting pot with copper wire, pass an electrical charge through it thereby creating a magnet of the pot. If the theory works then those molecules that are other than lead would pass through the lead and adhere to the magnetized pot.

Or, the wheel weights could be smelted, the metal poured as a thin layer onto an extremely flat surface of wood. The metal could be slathered in salt water causing the material other than lead to rust. The rust could be then removed and the process repeted a number of times until rust no longer appears.

 

[tg]

I would use them as is in your smoothbores and scrounge soft lead for rifle balls, and I would recommend a 15 ft. pole I have been hit with melted lead by my own stupidity and it leaves a nasty scar/groove in ones arm, did I mention it hurts like Hell and you can do nothing till it cools but grit your teeth, then it will come off easily...with some cooked flesh attatched.

 

[Zonie]

IMO magnetic materials loose their magnetic condition when the material becomes a fluid. Magnetism has to do with the alignment of the molecules when they are locked in a solid crystalline form.
If a magnet is just heated to the point that these molecules can just move around it will loose its magnetism.
It will be interesting to see what your search about the removal of the alloying material will come up with. I suspect it wont be an easy thing to do.

 

[musketman]

I did find out this so far...

This comes from: Arizona University Science Dept.

"I will ask some people in the chem lab about your refractory problem. However, my own knowledge tells me that by melting the alloy, you should have the tin and antimony floating on the lead."

Maybe we could melt the wheel weights, (without stirring) and skim off the upper layers... Guessing on the amount for now to skim, then cast a few balls and weigh them against known pure lead round balls.

I'll post more info as I get results or answers.

 

[Haggis]

Maybe one could bring the temp of the wheel weights above "ball pouring" temps, and hold the for a bit to allow the "impurities" to float to teh top. Allow the mass to cool and shave the the top bit off the lead?

 

[musketman]

quote:Originally posted by Haggis:
and hold the for a bit to allow the "impurities" to float to the top.A bit of wax or bullet lube will help speed up the floating to the top, via fluxing.

 

[Zonie]

You could speed up the separation process by building a heated centrifuge. Full of melted lead alloy it would be spun up to 200+ RPM and held at that speed while the heat was slowly removed allowing the material to harden. The outer 90% on the walls would be pure lead (specific gravity=11.34) so just machine out the inner area (tin (SG=7.15) and antimony (SG=6.68) remelt the remaining lead and pour it into the molds.

Note I said "you". I wouldn't get within 50 yards of the thing myself.

Another less practical method would be to build a lead still.
Heat the lead alloy to over 1400 degrees C. (2552 deg F) and the Antimony will boil off. Raise the temp to over 1620 degrees C. (2948 deg F) and the lead will boil off leaving the Tin (boiling point 2260 degrees C.) behind in the pot. Of course during the lead phase you will want to capture the vapors and cool them so you can melt them into bullets later. Simple yes?

I would advise not standing down wind from it though.

 

[Randy]

I'm not sure this fits here but it has to do with hardness of lead. Last months Muzzleblasts had an article on hunting large game with antique guns and they mentioned they used "hardened" lead balls. How do you harden lead? Or do they mean they used an alloy like wheel weights?

Horse Dr.

 

[Zonie]

Yes they used alloy like wheel weights. Those guns used wierd rifling like two tabs on the side of the ball which engaged two grooves in the guns bore. The tabs needed to be hard to take the tangential load needed to make the ball (4 Bore! 1750 grains! Ouch!!!!) spin without stripping.

 

[albert]

You can harden wheelweight alloy. Wheelweights lie at about 9 on the Brinell scale and can be hardened to about 30 if the proper degree of heat is applied and done correctly. The Lyman Reloading Handbook describes the procedure that you must follow to achieve the hardened alloy.

 

[Jack Walker]

Another good scource for pure lead is your local dentists. The lead backing to the xrays is oure and it costs the dentist a small fotune for disposal. Often when asked they will gladly give it to you to cut expense.

 

[musketman]

quote:Originally posted by Bull:
The lead backing to the xrays is oure and it costs the dentist a small fotune for disposal.You wouldn't need spit lube for the patches then, the lead would come pre-spitted.

Lead for next to nothing, and people thought going to the dentist was bad...

 

I've done as Bull has and gotten lead from my dentist. I thought it required a lot of effort and fuel to get it into usable ingots. Seems it took a lot of cleaning. I believe it was easier to buy it at a salvage yard for 20 cents a pound.

Regarding wheel weight, why not alloy it to Lyman #2 and use it for smokeless handgun or rifle bullets, or trade it to someone who has a use for it for straight lead?

I know.....wheelweight is not a consistent alloy....but I've had very good success with it by alloying it to Lyman #2 and have fired hundreds upon hundreds of pounds of it thru my revolvers and rifles. It also heat treats very well.....as has been stated.

Vic

 

[Voyageur]

quote:Originally posted by musketman:
This comes from: Arizona University Science Dept.
"I will ask some people in the chem lab about your refractory problem. However, my own knowledge tells me that by melting the alloy, you should have the tin and antimony floating on the lead."

"A bit of wax or bullet lube will help speed up the floating to the top, via fluxing."It has been my understanding for some 35 years that heating the lead to melting temperatures will separate the tin, antimony and lead requiring fluxing to remix the alloy.

Here, from the Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook are their directions for manufacturing bullet alloy:

"Heat the metal for about twenty minutes until it becomes liquified and flows freely. It is then ready for fluxing. As the metal melts, a gray scum will rise to the surface, contrasting sharply with the quick-silver brightness of the molten lead. DO NOT REMOVE THIS SCUM. This is tin, the most valuable component of the bullet metal. Tin, being lighter, will tend to float to the top of the mixture. Fluxing will recombine the tin-lead-antimony mixture.This operation is extemely important and it should be done carefully!

To flux the metal merely drop a small bit of tallow, beeswax , or bullet lubricant into the mixture. A smokey gas will rise from the top of the pot and this gas should be immediately ignited with a match. This will eliminate the smoke. Stir the mixture with the dipper, working the floating tin through the molten lead. As you stir, hold the diffper so the cup side is down and raise it out of the metal with each stirring stroke. This scoops air into the mixture and helps the flux".

When I get 'lead' from any source I always melt it and skim off everything to leave pure lead. For the cast bullets I make for my single shot rifles there are now fluxing agents on the market that don't require the 'burning off'. But I have fluxed many, many times, igniting the fumes of the beeswax with a propane torch. It still leaves a thick atmosphere in the shop but the bullets turn out very well.

For the last few years I've been supplied by my father-in-law with lead pipe from old buildings that he has come across. He's always willing to gather such material for me.

 

[musketman]

The quote I posted was from their science dept.
That doesn't mean the person who quoted ever melted lead before, he may have been summerising.

I'll keep after them to get a definite answer.

Now, if the TIN rises to the top of an un-fluxed melt, then all that would need to be done is to let it cool completely then saw off the upper layer...

 

[Voyageur]

Well, not really. Just 'skim' it off when the lead is molten. I have a couple of old tablespoons I use for that operation and I would just lean down and tap the spoon on the cement floor so it wouldn't really splatter.

I never have tried to save the tin (or dross which is everything that floats to the top) because I had read that different types of alloys besides tin were being added to wheel weights. Most of my wheel weight material I gathered together on a big hunt a long time ago. I've augmented it from time to time but I've always worried that I might coat my barrels with some strange alloy. To offset this I've made my own bullet moulds with larger lubricant grooves and purchased originals or reproductions that had large lubricant grooves to help coat the barrels. Then I cast hard to try to hold down any 'leading' while keeping the velocity down to achieve the same end.

With patched balls it isn't a problem and I use straight lead for my paper cartridge Sharps. Never had any trouble with either.

At one time I had a really fancy temperature controlled melting pot but I eventually went back to my lead pot on a Coleman stove. I even tried 'gang' moulds for awhile but it wasn't for me. Therapeutic just standing there with 3 or 4 moulds and runnin' bullets or balls.

 

[musketman]

Well people, I have a few e-mails off to the chem-labs of this nations top collages on the subject of extracting lead from wheel weights.

I got this picture from a friend of mine at a major collage, this is a wheel weight magnified 1.14K X (1140 power) :winking:

The darker gray is the lead, the tin shows up as bright white patches...

This is way cool...

 

[Huntinfool]

Hey everyone,

I got my lead from the guy who built my guns. He got it from a salvage place it was lined with some kind of plastic material. The salvage yard guy said it came from an X-ray room! A wall lining I suppose.

My mentor melted it down and cleaned it all up. I bought or traded him out of over 100 pounds of the stuff for 50 cents a pound in ingots.

It's very soft must be 98 or 99% pure.

Keep Yer Powder Dry Fellers!
"The Chuckster" ::

 

[riarcher]

Voyageur,
That's exactly the impression I had about lead. Flux is to keep the paterial mixed, and the "scums" are impurities (other than lead).
I've a bunch of WW, I thought I could just put it in a pot, put on a wood fire for several hours and occasionally just "skim the scum" and end up with (relativly) pure(er) lead.
Gonna try it anyways, but, I have many folks say it wont work that way. "The lead will still be hard". ( :
I've got to try it just to see if any of this is "just anouther wives tail".
Nice posting. ::
Awaiting some collegiate replies. (bet the "disclaimers" would be interesting(?)