wierd iginition problem

[jamieorr]

Could it be the lube on the patch affecting the powder? I found the commercial lubed patches to be very wet.

Jamie

 

[M. De Land]

I don't buy that liners work, possibly better, because they supposedly move the main charge powder a bit closer to the pan flame.
How can the powder be any closer in a non lined barrel than the flash hole being completely full and the pan being full as well.
That is as physically close as can be attained liner or not.

 

[M. De Land]

I got timed out before I finished changing the previous post so will continue here.
If the length of flash hole and the fuse burn effect of BP is the reason liners are supposedly better then why not remove the fuse burn effect by creating a clear flash hole with a pick for the hot pan gas to inter the center of the main charge.
When a pick is left in the flash hole at loading then the charge is compressed around it. When it is withdrawn the hole from the pick is left and the flash channel is completely clear.
If the pan ignites there is no possible way the flame cannot instantly reach the center of the main charge.

 

[Grenadier1758]

The more I think about this, the more I want to recommend a slight external cone. Strange disturbances can happen as the hot gas flow tries to enter the touch hole and encounters the back pressure of the powder chamber sealed by the patched ball. It only takes a small external cone to smooth out the turbulence generated by the sharp corners at the entry to the touch hole.

This theory is supported by the observation that through drilled touch holes may be finicky at first, but improve over time. The burning gases from ignition wear the entry smoother for better flow of the flash.

 

[54ball]

Warning...on my phone auto correct. :td:

Thanks MD and Grenadeir.

I am going to try loading with a pick. I am going to dress the vent just a little with a pointed file.

Too, I'm looking at any thing I did different prior to last shooting session....the bore may have been too greasy... however remote I'm looking ito that as well.

 

[M. De Land]

Make one change at a time so you can definitively tell what adds to or detracts from your goal.

 

[excess650]

My first thought when reading this is that the PRB compresses the powder far more tightly than the blank. As others have pointed out, loading with a pick IN the vent may alleviate the problem.

My flinters all have internally coned liners, but one of them most definitely works better if loaded with the pick in place.

 

[Pete G]

1/16" works with an insert, but is small for a drilled vent. Try drilling your vent a little larger.

 

[Col. Batguano]

With a longer skinnier "tube" going to the main charge, the powder will have to burn more like a fuse than a pile over that distance. Think about if you stretched a pound of powder out in a line vs. dumping it in a big pile. When you light both which one gets totally consumed first? The same is true for conversion of pan flash to main charge ignition. And, the main charge will be being ignited over a larger area, rather than a smaller 1/16" tube.

The time of the flash conversion between the two methods probably won't be humanly perceptible, but it WILL be scientifically measurable. Check out Pletch's posts and publications if you want to see the actual hard data.

 

[54ball]

Had a good session Saturday....may try it again this after noon.
I used Goex 3f for prime and load with a simple feather pick inserted when loading. The first shot was fast others too ....

Tried it few times with out the pick. When loaded without the pick...pan flash....with the pick it will shoot. Very predictable.

I may try it with 5/64 I've got more shooting to do first.
I'll give a more detailed report about other issues as welll.
Thanks

 

[Larry Pletcher]

54,
If you decide to drill a larger hole, be advised that there are 5 numbered bits between 1/16 and 5/64. They are:
.064, .067, .070, ,073, and .076. They are available at the hardware, but you might have to ask. With these bits you can sneak up on the ignition you want.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Artificer]

You know, it doesn't happen very often that an original quote will match the date of an original rifle or a repro of an original rifle, but we seem to hit the jackpot on this one.

"James Audubon, c1810, describing his host preparing to go raccoon hunting:

"”¦ He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a feather into the touch-hole. To a leathern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman”¦.
Journals, Vol. 2, (1972 reprint), page 492."

What it sounds like is this was a really oversize vent hole that when the feather was pulled out, the powder filled the pan. However, this is EXACT DATE documentation for using a feather in the pan.

BTW, thanks to Elnathan for originally providing this quote.

Gus

 

[M. De Land]

What happens Gus is the feather keeps the flash hole clear as the charge is compressed under the ball. The compression keeps the powder from filling the hole when the feather is withdrawn.
Now the flash from the pan has a clear path to the center of the charge.
I am beginning to think the size of the flash channel is irrelevant if of any reasonable diameter and it is clear for the pan flash to traverse.

 

[M. De Land]

I need to do some testing.
I have read that flint sparks in a dry pan can light the main charge in some guns nearly 50 percent of the time.
The test would be to dry pan fire with and without a pick at loading to see if any ignition change occurs.

 

[varsity07840]

Shooting blank loads produces a lot more fouling than a regular load.
You might have an issue with old accumulated fouling on and around the breech plug face.

 

[Brokennock]

Should be an interesting test. I do remember the owner of another M.L. forum, now defunct, putting a hole in his cabin wall with an empty pan. Can't remember why the frizzen was closed over an empty pan indoors.

 

[Artificer]

What happens Gus is the feather keeps the flash hole clear as the charge is compressed under the ball. The compression keeps the powder from filling the hole when the feather is withdrawn.
Now the flash from the pan has a clear path to the center of the charge.
I am beginning to think the size of the flash channel is irrelevant if of any reasonable diameter and it is clear for the pan flash to traverse.

I understood that, just wanted to use a period documentation when it was the same year as the original rifle that was copied.

Personally, I think Audubon may have missed the hunter putting powder in the pan after he withdrew the feather, IOW it was an unintentional omission on Audubon's part.

What I wonder about is when the powder charge is compressed by the ball, that the powder surface area exposed to the flash/hot gas from the burning powder in the pan is reduced and thus makes it more difficult to go off. IOW, greater surface area would allow the main powder charge to go off easier. Then when the hot gas has to burn through the powder in the channel, it is slowed down and not as hot when it hits the main charge?

Not sure if this makes sense, but I think the burn rate of the compressed powder with less surface area is part of the problem? When there is no powder in the touch hole channel, the hot flash/gas is not impeded when it hits the compressed powder?

Gus

 

[Tom Compton]

It might make sense if I knew what IOW means.

 

[azmntman]

in other words ??

 

[Artificer]

Yes, IOW means in other words.

Gus