Woodsrunner CNC Incised Carving

[Mike in FL]

Just me, but the WR looks less "woodsy" if carved. I'm no history expert and I don't even have a WR.

 

[James Kibler]

This reminds me of a story from Wallace Gusler. He made a beautiful relief carved rifle that went to some state park. Turns out the fellow in charge of the park felt that carving wasn't appropriate on a rifle like this and proceeded to rasp it all off....

 

[deerstalkert]

This reminds me of a story from Wallace Gusler. He made a beautiful relief carved rifle that went to some state park. Turns out the fellow in charge of the park felt that carving wasn't appropriate on a rifle like this and proceeded to rasp it all off....

you can lead a horse..........etc.
and you are right. no accounting for taste.
my BIL Lurch is working on a Woodsrunner. bought it a month and a half ago. he just put the first coat of oil on it. without Kiblers kit's he would never have built anything.

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

This reminds me of a story from Wallace Gusler. He made a beautiful relief carved rifle that went to some state park. Turns out the fellow in charge of the park felt that carving wasn't appropriate on a rifle like this and proceeded to rasp it all off....

Some people...!

 

[PathfinderNC]

Oh my…
Yes, sorry that I could not find a photo of Kibler hand incised carving as a comparative example to Kibler CNC carving. I opted to provide one with a little incise carving however, just to illustrate my thoughts on the topic.
But then it seems, unfortunately, that having a critical (= “wrong”) opinion about certain things incurs being labeled (by some) as being ignorant and uneducated.

There is a term for that these days.

 

[James Kibler]

So, here are some photos of one I finished. A better comparison between the relief carved version. In looking at this incised carving again, I can confidently say it is not only very similar to how I would incise carve it by hand but also that it falls within the scope of original incised carving.

As you can hopefully see, much depends on finishing techniques.

I want to be clear, individual taste is fine, but when judgments are passed that I feel are inaccurate, you'll hear from me.

I will also say, that very few have the ability to carve a stock well. This is just honesty.

 

[James Kibler]

A few more shots

 

[James Kibler]

Another point of view... Sure you might like the relief hand carved version better, but how many can really pull this carving off? To be honest, I've seen a lot of well meaning carving attempts that fell a little short.

I applaud those for trying, but what I'm saying is that it's not an easy thing to do.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Sorry if I offended anyone by saying I thought the CNC carving looked machine made ( just being honest).
I understand that for some people it’s a simple, narrow minded assessment, a judgmental and uneducated thing to say or think.
Therefore I will henceforth temper my comments and opinions in order not to offend anyone in any way, shape or form and I will be more mindful of those with such delicate sensibilities.

 

[Buff1958]

You guys should do better to educate yourself. Study original work. When comparing the carving you are comparing apples and oranges. Relief carving is a complete different animal from incised carving.

You don't of course have to like this or our kits in general, but I do appreciate well informed opinions.

As to kits being "cookie cutter" you are right in some ways. They are very much the same. But... There are big benefits from this. You get a gun that is better than probably 99% of any custom gun made. Better in terms of historical correctness, design, style, aesthetics, precision, functionality etc. This at a price that is just a bit above the price of parts if bought individually. Plus someone who doesn't have skills to make a gun from a blank can be part of the project and it can be part of themselves. They rightfully feel proud and enjoy the process.

It's interesting that most who are well informed and respected in this community, understand this and don't tend to make these simple narrow minded assessments. There is a place for all approaches...

I did not intend to insult anyone when I said I would not buy another carved rifle. I am not into the history of the guns. I hunt with them, Hogs mostly. All I was saying Is that I prefer the sleek look of a smooth stock .

 

[TobJohn]

Another point of view... Sure you might like the relief hand carved version better, but how many can really pull this carving off? To be honest, I've seen a lot of well meaning carving attempts that fell a little short.

I applaud those for trying, but what I'm saying is that it's not an easy thing to do.

Are you still planning on adding a relief carving option for the woodsrunner? Congrats on the release of the fowler, it looks amazing!

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

I received a carved Woods Runner kit as a gift. I am exceptionally pleased with it.

It’s that whole Maryanne or Ginger thing.

 

[Rocketman89408]

That is perfect.

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

I like it. I've seen a lot of rifles diminished by poor carving, and other's that seem "incomplete" without carving. Jim's carving is appropriate for the period he's evoking and properly finished look very nice,

 

[Eric Krewson]

Yep, the key is "proper" finish, like the one Jim posted above that makes everything fall into place beautifully.

I can't carve didly, which surprises me because I could once carve a duck decoy that looked like it could get up and fly away. Arthritic hands get in the way now, about 28 years of drawknifing hundreds of osage bow staves into shape does that to one.

I beat my guns up dragging them through the thick Alabama ridges that I hunt, this is the main reason I keep them plain. It seems like every time I lower one out of my treestand to the ground it finds a sharp rock under the leaves to bounce off of.

I have often been tempted to buy a completely adorned gun here, like one of Fred Lecto's beauties but for me it would end up being a safe queen to protect it from ME.

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

You guys should do better to educate yourself. Study original work. When comparing the carving you are comparing apples and oranges. Relief carving is a complete different animal from incised carving.

You don't of course have to like this or our kits in general, but I do appreciate well informed opinions.

As to kits being "cookie cutter" you are right in some ways. They are very much the same. But... There are big benefits from this. You get a gun that is better than probably 99% of any custom gun made. Better in terms of historical correctness, design, style, aesthetics, precision, functionality etc. This at a price that is just a bit above the price of parts if bought individually. Plus someone who doesn't have skills to make a gun from a blank can be part of the project and it can be part of themselves. They rightfully feel proud and enjoy the process.

It's interesting that most who are well informed and respected in this community, understand this and don't tend to make these simple narrow minded assessments. There is a place for all approaches...

I can give you a who's who list of custom builders I know that own at least one of your guns. And everyone of them I know are building the kits you make for customers or buying them, finishing them and selling them online here.

As for the kits being "cookie cutters" you are giving the customer a blank canvas to do anything they want with them. I have seen some fantastic customized Kibler rifles, where you'd have to take a solid second look to know they are a Kibler. Its like a Harley, a fully personalized custom chopper is built for the guy who wanted it first. To others it might be too much or just not for them, or they might love it. Thats why most will buy a bone stock Harley and customize it the way they want it. Your offering that service.

If your making money off offering the incised carving option then from a business prospective your doing great. Some that don't have the ability to do it or can't afford to have it done by hand its a great option. I'd wager and say those that have the ability to do exceptional custom relief carving etc are going to build from a log instead of from one of your kits anyways. So some are just talking to brag on themselves. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. I personally like the simplicity look of the kit without the incisive carving but that's my personal style. Of course I prefer most my guns built in steel too, and if brass aged to death. Your the main business in traditional muzzleloading kits right now that's what's important.

 

[Drafthorse]

I was very interested by this thread. I learned something from both sides of the conversation. I’ve worked on old originals most of my life. I’ve put several kit guns together over the years, but nothing that really impressed me. I had always wanted to put one of Jim Kiblers gun to the test but always found something else to put the money towards. Well January 2023 I was diagnosed with cancer. There was no initial shock that drug me down, but a true moment of clarity. I immediately called Kiblers and spoke with Bree. I ordered a Southern Mountain rifle and Colonial kit. As of the writing of this post I’m cancer free and both of my gun are together. Jim’s kits are well thought out weather your skilled or just starting out. I recommend them to people all the time. His carvings are great,but if you don’t like them there are other options. I fully intend to buy more of his kits. I absolutely love the SMR.

 

[Wncman]

There’s a few things on the carving I’m not a fan of. However I saw one that had been re carved using the incised as a guid line. Almost couldn’t tell a difference.

 

[mikesto44]

First I'm no expert but I've been around antique and contemporary firearms for 60 + years. In that time I've seen a few .
I have also spent time talking to Jim Chambers, Wallace Gusler and many others who I think know what there talking about.
Personally I don't care for the CNC carving either !
I dislike all the little hash marks. Some are nicely placed others are just over kill.
But unfortunately SOME don't understand personal taste. So they have to bad mouth the other guy..!
Besides who wants something that looks identical to the other guys...? I don't..

 

[PathfinderNC]

First I'm no expert but I've been around antique and contemporary firearms for 60 + years. In that time I've seen a few .
I have also spent time talking to Jim Chambers, Wallace Gusler and many others who I think know what there talking about.
Personally I don't care for the CNC carving either !
I dislike all the little hash marks. Some are nicely placed others are just over kill.
But unfortunately SOME don't understand personal taste. So they have to bad mouth the other guy..!
Besides who wants something that looks identical to the other guys...? I don't..

When I wrote that I thought CNC carving looks like machine carving I got a really severe response, ultimately saying that my opinion (or me?) was uninformed, close- minded and had simple-minded assessments not shared by members “who are well informed and respected in this community”.
That’s just arrogant, defensive, insulting and unfortunate.
For heaven’s sake, it is machine carving, even if it’s very good machine carving. It is what it is.