India Barrel Failure

Commodore Swab said:

Looks like an attempt at bad mouthing guns out of India. With tens of thousands of these guns of various styles many of which are in the hands of inexperienced shooters there should be countless failures and accidents. Every failure I have seen this included can be contributed to operator error, wrong powder, obstructions ect. Any barrel can be blown up and I wouldn't be surprised if the India made barrels were subjected to more attempts than any other.

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You might be on to something there; nobody's trying to blow a Pedersoli, Uberti, or Pietta, but every kid like the one from Clockwork Orange is ramming everything they can get their hands on down India guns. (Just being a bit facetious!)

yellowhammer said:

Only firearm barrel failure I ever witnessed personally was when my cousin blew up an old unmentionable shotgun with a modern unmentionable shell. Peeled back like a banana. Last bp ml failures I remember were the Lyman breech plugs blowing out... Never heard of a recent bp ml barrel banana peeling, but I can understand it occurring in guns manufactured with poor quality control...

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Never heard of Lymans having that problem; which guns were they?

springfield art said:

Never heard of Lymans having that problem; which guns were they?

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LINK TO LYMAN RECALL

yellowhammer said:

LINK TO LYMAN RECALL

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Thank you.

200 gr in a .50 cal pistol would result in the bullet being turned into an obstruction. This the bullet would be out towards the front of the barrel more like shown in the picture. BP would burn slow and a detonation effect would likely occur as it can’t ignite that much powder all at once.

earlwb said:

200 gr in a .50 cal pistol would result in the bullet being turned into an obstruction. This the bullet would be out towards the front of the barrel more like shown in the picture. BP would burn slow and a detonation effect would likely occur as it can’t ignite that much powder all at once.

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If that were true any 50 caliber barrel, no matter the length, with a 200 grain powder charge in it would turn the bullet into an obstruction, correct? Second part of my question, if 200 grains of powder will not ignite at once and causes the bullet to become an obstruction, will the same phenomenon happen with 175 grains of powder? Or with 150 grains? And before you answer, remember, there are number manufacturers out there selling guns in 50 caliber ‘rated’ for 150 grain powder loads, with a few even higher (not saying that is a good idea). I wonder why they don’t all blow up from the bullet obstructing the bore as the black powder doesn’t ignite all at once?

SDSmlf said:

If that were true any 50 caliber barrel, no matter the length, with a 200 grain powder charge in it would turn the bullet into an obstruction, correct? Second part of my question, if 200 grains of powder will not ignite at once and causes the bullet to become an obstruction, will the same phenomenon happen with 175 grains of powder? Or with 150 grains? And before you answer, remember, there are number manufacturers out there selling guns in 50 caliber ‘rated’ for 150 grain powder loads, with a few even higher (not saying that is a good idea). I wonder why they don’t all blow up from the bullet obstructing the bore as the black powder doesn’t ignite all at once?

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Not sure how a bullet could be an obstruction.

PathfinderNC said:

Not sure how a bullet could be an obstruction.

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Not if it is properly seated on the powder. That is my question to the previous poster claiming that it would be an obstruction.

earlwb said:

200 gr in a .50 cal pistol would result in the bullet being turned into an obstruction.

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Loyalist Dave said:

Something REALLY wrong here.

FIRST, the CIP does NOT have universally standardized proofing tests for black powder. Each CIP facility is free to establish their own procedure, to determine if that particular CIP facility will place its stamp(s) on the barrel. YET, the facebook page claims that the testing was done as universally specified by the CIP which it only is with modern cartridges, NOT black powder.

SECOND, I find it odd that they do not mention the proofing house that was used. Once CIP proofed, that proof is good in any CIP signatory nation. So that barrel was not necessarily proofed and failed in the country where the facebook page originates.

There is more to this story than we are being told. I wonder if the barrel information was provided second hand.

LD

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Hi Dave- you’re right about the vagueness of this proofing account. So much of the article was in Hungarian, with some FB translating. Perhaps it was just a novelty post? Coming from Capandball made me think the information was reputable. Who knows.

Well, cap and ball IS a pedersoli dealer in Hungary…….

Something is really off with the information. As far as I know, the India dog locks are .60cal and call for a 30grain charge. 200 would be intended to blow the barrel. I wonder how many balls they loaded. I agree that Capandball is usually a great source of information. I suspect he was re-posting something 2nd hand. Here's 11bangbang's video on how to blow up an India barrel.

Well, if you were the only pedersoli dealer in a small country, and India made muskets were undercutting you, wouldn’t you post something about that?!

PathfinderNC said:

Hi Dave- you’re right about the vagueness of this proofing account. So much of the article was in Hungarian, with some FB translating. Perhaps it was just a novelty post? Coming from Capandball made me think the information was reputable. Who knows.

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Yeah I like his stuff, and I'm not casting dispersions as his videos tend to be quite informative. I just wonder if the information is 2nd hand, plus the fact that there was the claim of the standardization of the BP testing, which I know is not a thing.

LD

200 grains in a pistol? Most of that charge is going out of that barrel unburned. It took 11 bang bang like 1200 grain and a double round ball to burst an Indian spring steel barrel.

A customer brought in an India decorator flint pistol. The lock wasn't sparking (of course) as the mainspring was
just a heavy duty hairpin. He said he wanted it to spark just to show how they worked. I said OK, but don't try and shoot it, the flash hole being around 1/8th inch diameter. He said no he wouldn't try.
I installed a real mainspring, and soled the frizzed, and it sparked OK, Not a fireball, but OK.
Customer was delighted.
Of course he tried to shoot it...It didn't explode or anything but he said a blast of flame came "out the side for about
10 feet!" His patched marble flew about 10 yards.....
I told him to buy an actual flintlock pistol, but he insisted this was a "family heirloom".

Whitworth said:

How about made from reclaimed scrap metal.

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This gentleman,

ArmorerRoy said:

Shouldn’t that have blown up at the breech if it was loaded right. That looks like fake news.

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,,,,, is spot on.
Has nothing to do with metal, scrap or otherwise.
If this were a legit test, why did it blow where pressure is lowest. If the proof load (which also sounds suspect) blew the barrel due to faulty steel, construction, or design, it would have blown at the breach where pressure was at its peak.

Something, like an obstruction, spikes pressure somewhere between the wedding band transition and the muzzle.

200 grs of BP will not burn in a pistol barrel. Maybe 50 at best but even with 50, 150 gr of weight is added to the bullet and that is what raises the pressure. Chances are the barrel was hand made, sitting by a charcoal fire with a pile of scrap metal.

springfield art said:

You might be on to something there; nobody's trying to blow a Pedersoli, Uberti, or Pietta, but every kid like the one from Clockwork Orange is ramming everything they can get their hands on down India guns. (Just being a bit facetious!)

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Thats not accurate, Italian guns are all proof tested. American gun barrels in England, Germany and Spain are proof tested etc.

The only way to determine the barrels structural integrity and it,s failure is metallurgy Forensics.
Anything else is just speculation.

sussexmuzllodr said:

The only way to determine the barrels structural integrity and it,s failure is metallurgy Forensics.
Anything else is just speculation.

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Indian steel manufacturing is known for using recycled steel. the Indian steel scrap segment is unorganized and uncontrolled with a vast network of it comprising of unorganized small steel producers who predominantly use steel scrap and other types of materials for steel production. This at times has resulted in poor quality steel.

The prices on many of these Indian guns reflect the materials being used, cheaper wood and metal. India does manufacture some fine firearms made of high quality materials, so there’s that confidence.

However the way many Indian made barrels are manufactured and designed i think has more to do with it. many of these barrels are not drilled form bar stock, they forged into a tube, a very difficult process to do with steel, but absolutely can be done with Iron or wrought iron. You need much higher temperatures to hammer forge steel into a tube for effective butt welds. I think most are ok, but they few that have exploded that are on the internet all have unseamed at the welded areas.

Lastly, the breech’s on most are just too small, even original iron gun barrels often had heavier breeches for safety reasons. Many of these modern repro from Indian wouldn’t pass an 18th century inspection. That includes a pedersoli bess, however they do disclose what steel they use and are proof tested.