So what if one used steel shot bare back and it scored the bore, so what! Would it really matter?
What IS the worst that could happen?
B.
What IS the worst that could happen?
B.
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A steel shot what if?
- Thread starter Britsmoothy
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Depends on how deep, but I'd start worrying about gas getting past my wads and blowing the pattern.
Other than that, I'd sure hate cleaning that bore. I sent off a breechloading double to have one of the fixed chokes opened a bit. Came back opened up approximately right, but the ham-handed gun butcher didn't even bother to polish the bore after reaming. Even with modern powders, that bore was pure misery to clean thoroughly. Admittedly the "scoring" was radial rather than longitudinal, but it was a mess. Sent it off to a real gunsmith for polishing and all has been roses since.
Other than that, I'd sure hate cleaning that bore. I sent off a breechloading double to have one of the fixed chokes opened a bit. Came back opened up approximately right, but the ham-handed gun butcher didn't even bother to polish the bore after reaming. Even with modern powders, that bore was pure misery to clean thoroughly. Admittedly the "scoring" was radial rather than longitudinal, but it was a mess. Sent it off to a real gunsmith for polishing and all has been roses since.
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Brush Research markets a flex hone for shotguns that's perfect for polishing bores. The 400 grit runs $44 plus shipping. I have a bottle of their honing oil, but there are reports that ATF works well.
I wonder though just how bad would it be, say to have a steel shot barrel dedicated for duck, surely a wassystem could over come the scoring, not going to be to deep, is it?
B.
B.
palonghunter
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If you're going to all the trouble of having a barrel just for steel shot, why not just get one that's chrome lined or nitrided and then you won't have to worry about it?
It's not traditional, but then again, neither is steel shot.
It's not traditional, but then again, neither is steel shot.
I was not aware chrome plating protected a barrel from steel shot. To be honest I was told that is one of those myths!palonghunter said:
I would love to able to do a before and after over twenty shots on an old gun just to see.
B.
Ron LaClair
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If you're gonna use steel shot use a modern gun. Steel shot in a muzzleloader is Blasphemy :shake:
Ken Cormier
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I am not a rich guy the guns that I own came dearly to me. So to purposely damage one using steel shot. Is unthinkable why would you want to do that I don't know. My guns are to valuable to me as I can do enough accidentally. :2
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Truth be known, I suspect you'll be so dissatisfied with steel shot in a muzzleloader, any barrel damage will seem like a very bad price to pay.
Steel shot requires higher velocities to kill. And you simply can't push it to those speeds (minimum 1400fps in my experience) with black powder. You'll likely get no more than about 1200fps.
You can compensate to a degree by going to about 3 shot sizes larger than you need with modern guns and modern powders pushing higher velocities. But the significant jump in shot size translates into greatly thinned patterns. The thinned patters cut your effective range, and you're right back into the range limits you're facing now.
If I was going to say the heck with barrel damage, I'd say the heck with steel and go with one of the tungsten shot variations in order to sustain pattern density while removing the obligation for higher velocities.
Better yet, I'd say no to barrel damage, and use one of the denser alternative shot versions in modern wads to protect the barrel, or opt for bismuth or original ITX to shoot without the wads.
Steel shot requires higher velocities to kill. And you simply can't push it to those speeds (minimum 1400fps in my experience) with black powder. You'll likely get no more than about 1200fps.
You can compensate to a degree by going to about 3 shot sizes larger than you need with modern guns and modern powders pushing higher velocities. But the significant jump in shot size translates into greatly thinned patterns. The thinned patters cut your effective range, and you're right back into the range limits you're facing now.
If I was going to say the heck with barrel damage, I'd say the heck with steel and go with one of the tungsten shot variations in order to sustain pattern density while removing the obligation for higher velocities.
Better yet, I'd say no to barrel damage, and use one of the denser alternative shot versions in modern wads to protect the barrel, or opt for bismuth or original ITX to shoot without the wads.
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Short Answer
The worst that could happen could be a catastrophic failure, but like everything else in life, it is not black and white. There are shades of gray in between no problem and disaster.
Longer Answer
Interesting information here from one of your fellow Commonwealth Countries:
http://www.gma.vic.gov.au/hunting/duck/hunting-methods/non-toxic-shot/possible-effects-to-guns
Long Winded, Opined, Answer
A lot of variables are at work with steel, what type of gun, what type of steel is the barrel made of, what condition is it in, how much do you plan to shoot steel? If a shotgun, how is it choked? And others.
The problem with steel shot is it is nearly as hard as newer modern barrels and harder than older ones, so the older they are the more damage. Logic would dictate that that scoring would be worse is softer barrels and longitudinal grooves cut in the barrel are going to weaken. The question is how much and how long before it fails? (I'm thinking Russian Roulette here)
Additionally, choked guns provide an additional danger by raising the pressure in the barrel. Steel shot, being much harder, does not compress as much as lead going through the choke. It has to realign itself passing through. This backs things up like a banana in a tail pipe, increasing pressure, which can lead to ringing in the barrel or worse. I rather think this is why Pedersoli, in their manual for their ML guns, recommends no tighter choke than improved cylinder when using steel shot in their shotguns.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/uploads/supporto/14AVC_INGLESE.pdf
(its specific to Pedersoli, but lots of good general info on all types of ML guns, cleaning, assembly etc.
Another set of variables are reasons to be using steel. There are, I'm sure, uncountable times throughout history where just about anything that'll fit has been jammed down a gun barrel. (Check You Tube).
If you're up against the wall, with only your treasured custom built Bess, imminent danger closing in, that requires deadly force, and your mindset is survival, not remaining PC to the death, I'd grab a handful of pea gravel if that's all there was.
If your looking for a way to keep shooting while avoiding an agenda driven Progressive ban on lead, I'd look at one of the tungsten-matrix, bismuth or other non-toxic options, like Hevi Shot. They are available bulk if you plan to shoot a lot, or open up some modern shells and take the shot out if you're going to shoot a little. More expensive, but that's part of the Progressive agenda.
If you're just doing it to save money, by buying a sack of BBs from the discount store, or just for S&Gs because you have a sack of ball bearings laying around and want to see what happens.... Son, you're on your own. Just put up a "Darwin At Work" sign to warn the rest of us to stay clear, if we so desire.
The worst that could happen could be a catastrophic failure, but like everything else in life, it is not black and white. There are shades of gray in between no problem and disaster.
Longer Answer
Interesting information here from one of your fellow Commonwealth Countries:
http://www.gma.vic.gov.au/hunting/duck/hunting-methods/non-toxic-shot/possible-effects-to-guns
Long Winded, Opined, Answer
A lot of variables are at work with steel, what type of gun, what type of steel is the barrel made of, what condition is it in, how much do you plan to shoot steel? If a shotgun, how is it choked? And others.
The problem with steel shot is it is nearly as hard as newer modern barrels and harder than older ones, so the older they are the more damage. Logic would dictate that that scoring would be worse is softer barrels and longitudinal grooves cut in the barrel are going to weaken. The question is how much and how long before it fails? (I'm thinking Russian Roulette here)
Additionally, choked guns provide an additional danger by raising the pressure in the barrel. Steel shot, being much harder, does not compress as much as lead going through the choke. It has to realign itself passing through. This backs things up like a banana in a tail pipe, increasing pressure, which can lead to ringing in the barrel or worse. I rather think this is why Pedersoli, in their manual for their ML guns, recommends no tighter choke than improved cylinder when using steel shot in their shotguns.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/uploads/supporto/14AVC_INGLESE.pdf
(its specific to Pedersoli, but lots of good general info on all types of ML guns, cleaning, assembly etc.
Another set of variables are reasons to be using steel. There are, I'm sure, uncountable times throughout history where just about anything that'll fit has been jammed down a gun barrel. (Check You Tube).
If you're up against the wall, with only your treasured custom built Bess, imminent danger closing in, that requires deadly force, and your mindset is survival, not remaining PC to the death, I'd grab a handful of pea gravel if that's all there was.
If your looking for a way to keep shooting while avoiding an agenda driven Progressive ban on lead, I'd look at one of the tungsten-matrix, bismuth or other non-toxic options, like Hevi Shot. They are available bulk if you plan to shoot a lot, or open up some modern shells and take the shot out if you're going to shoot a little. More expensive, but that's part of the Progressive agenda.
If you're just doing it to save money, by buying a sack of BBs from the discount store, or just for S&Gs because you have a sack of ball bearings laying around and want to see what happens.... Son, you're on your own. Just put up a "Darwin At Work" sign to warn the rest of us to stay clear, if we so desire.
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I haven’t shot steel in my ML’s but I have shot it bare in a modern 12 gauge and it did score the barrel it was quite noticeable when I cleaned it. I shot another hundred rounds or so of regular lead shot bare and the scoring is no longer visible. :idunno:
As long as I have lead shot I'm going to keep using it...at least until they come out with an alternative that is better and cheaper. :grin:
A load like a candle cartridge might offer enough lubrication to prevent scoring? :hmm:
As long as I have lead shot I'm going to keep using it...at least until they come out with an alternative that is better and cheaper. :grin:
A load like a candle cartridge might offer enough lubrication to prevent scoring? :hmm:
If you haven't kept up with modern shotgun use, running steel shot through a barrel with any kind of choke will result in a nice bulge in the barrel. My son & numerous others I have seen have ruined their barrels. Barrels must be reamed out to cylinder bore if to be used for steel shot.
Paul
Paul
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:bull: :bull:
More data needed
More data needed
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Ithaca hasn't been made for many decades.
Billnpatti
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You can make a shot cup that will protect your bore from the steel shot. I don't know if it is something that was used "in the day" but it is something that may have been used back then. Here is how you make it: Cut a piece of paper such as a grocery sack so that it forms a + shape. The legs of the + shape should be wide enough to completely line the bore when it is centered on the muzzle and pressed into the bore. I put my OP wad into the bore just far enough to support the shot cup as I fill it. I then seat the filled shot cup on the powder and place an OS card on top of it. The legs of the shot cup should be cut to a length that is just encloses the shot charge. When the gun is fired, the paper shot cup will quickly drop away allowing your shot to proceed on to the target.
When loading a shotgun using one of these paper shot cups, you will need to not seat the OP wad as you usually do, you will need to just insert it far enough to support the shot cup as you fill it with shot. If you don't do that, the weight of the shot will cause the shot cup to slide down the bore before you get it completely filled. If this happens, the rest of the shot will sit on top of the closed legs of the cup. The cup will not be protecting the bore from the steel shot and the pattern will also be affected. I use a dowel that is just a bit smaller than the bore to insert the cup. You can sand a 5/8 dowel to the perfect fit if you have a 12 ga. shotgun. Center the + on your bore and use the dowel to press it into the bore just far enough that a small portion of the legs are left sticking out of the muzzle. This will make the cup easy to fill.
When loading a shotgun using one of these paper shot cups, you will need to not seat the OP wad as you usually do, you will need to just insert it far enough to support the shot cup as you fill it with shot. If you don't do that, the weight of the shot will cause the shot cup to slide down the bore before you get it completely filled. If this happens, the rest of the shot will sit on top of the closed legs of the cup. The cup will not be protecting the bore from the steel shot and the pattern will also be affected. I use a dowel that is just a bit smaller than the bore to insert the cup. You can sand a 5/8 dowel to the perfect fit if you have a 12 ga. shotgun. Center the + on your bore and use the dowel to press it into the bore just far enough that a small portion of the legs are left sticking out of the muzzle. This will make the cup easy to fill.
Some shells I have seen have a shot colum the holds the shot to protect the barrel.I see a barrel with a blown out area in it caused from the shot colum sticking in the barrel and the next shot coming up against the "plug" in the barrel.Least then is what the Gunsmith come up with,,sounds reasonable,,,
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From what I know, paper alone, is not going to protect a gun barrel from the effects of steel. Even modern plastic shot cups, designed for lead will not do that. Those who reload, and/or shoot, steel know that there are special thicker plastic shot cups designed for steel. If you look at the last paragraph of the Aussie article I linked above, it discusses this.
The problem is not only the galling, scouring effect on the barrel, but the harder steel shot not compressing and reforming as it goes down the barrel, this is what cause the bulges and rings. Loaders of steel shot have also used powdered plastic, Super Grex, I think was the brand name, to provide cushioning between the steel pellets, allowing the shot load to conform with the barrel/choke as it travels out. The thickness of paper you speak of would not possess the cushioning effect supplied by the thicker plastic.
Have you ever recovered one of your paper shot cups? I would be interested in its condition, if it had worn through, and what kind of marks were left by the pellets. It would also be interesting to see the inside of your barrel after firing such loads. You may be onto something depending on their condition.
A like minded idea, that came to me after reading your post, would be a leather shot cup, of the type that you describe being made of paper. That could even possibly be considered traditional/period.
With some testing it could be determined whether this would provide the required protection and cushioning for the pellet load. Type and thickness of the leather would matter, and you could try adding some course sawdust into your shot load to mimic the cushioning effect of the ground plastic filler.
The problem is not only the galling, scouring effect on the barrel, but the harder steel shot not compressing and reforming as it goes down the barrel, this is what cause the bulges and rings. Loaders of steel shot have also used powdered plastic, Super Grex, I think was the brand name, to provide cushioning between the steel pellets, allowing the shot load to conform with the barrel/choke as it travels out. The thickness of paper you speak of would not possess the cushioning effect supplied by the thicker plastic.
Have you ever recovered one of your paper shot cups? I would be interested in its condition, if it had worn through, and what kind of marks were left by the pellets. It would also be interesting to see the inside of your barrel after firing such loads. You may be onto something depending on their condition.
A like minded idea, that came to me after reading your post, would be a leather shot cup, of the type that you describe being made of paper. That could even possibly be considered traditional/period.
With some testing it could be determined whether this would provide the required protection and cushioning for the pellet load. Type and thickness of the leather would matter, and you could try adding some course sawdust into your shot load to mimic the cushioning effect of the ground plastic filler.
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Kennyc said:
Same here :thumbsup:
Unfortunatly though, I am not smart enough to kick the bad habit of trying to find solutions where there are no problems
Grandpa Ron
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If steel shot can mess up a smokeless steel barrel, I would not want to try it in my muzzle loader barrel.
If I did, I would buy one of the shot wads designed for steel shot. They might give a measure of protection.
First I would try hunting with steel in a modern gun to get a feel for it. I used heavy shot because I was only going once. It was expensive.
If I did, I would buy one of the shot wads designed for steel shot. They might give a measure of protection.
First I would try hunting with steel in a modern gun to get a feel for it. I used heavy shot because I was only going once. It was expensive.
