About carving on originals

MTCossack · May 13, 2022

Some of the "Golden Age" rifles I've seen without carving were smoothbores (I use "rifle" here in the sense that they had rifle-style fittings: cheekpiece, handgrip on the trigger guard, and perhaps a patchbox). This would back the theory that I've heard that rifling was the major upgrade - once someone was paying for a rifled barrel, they were getting a more premium product and so it was more likely to include carving and engraving, either as a request of the customer or as a mark of pride of the gunsmith.

Plenty of smooth rifles also had the works with fancy carving, patchboxes, and engraving, too, of course. But the theory makes sense to me.

Snake Pleskin · May 13, 2022

As rifles became more popular, styles evolved etc. Remember the older Trade Styles & French Fusilli's, they were usually unadorned but some were dressed up for special gifts to certain individuals etc. The smooth bore was much more popular than the rifle because it gave more versatility, and many were relatively plain in appearance. The Lancaster rifle style evolved from the old jaeger mind set (german) from the Lehigh, Reading, Lancaster, Susquehanna (Germanic/Dutch)areas that saw rifles that were embellished at first. The highly decorative rifles were often a sign of wealth and stature in the community. IMHO the average working schmuck was not interested in embellishments but wanted reliability, strength and accuracy. An obvious difference to me is the Lancaster patch box that is highly engraved etc. versus what you see in Tenn, SC & NC mountain rifles that have none, a wooden one or just a hole in the stock for grease. There was NO money being spent on decoration! Just like today, decorative, embellished rifles were costly and could only be afforded by a few versus the everyday working smooth bore fowler or smooth rifle. needed for existence not to impress the neighbors! (IMHO)

Cvkotvkse · Jun 12, 2022

rich pierce said:
Lots of plain rifles survived in Berks County and surrounds. So many that Chuck Dixon applied/coined the phrase “schimmel” to describe them. Same story with plain Tennessee and North Carolina rifles made at the same time as more decorated rifles in the same states. Truckloads of plain longrifles survived.

MM... Surprising to me, re: NC/TN guns, if true. Due to a number of factors, more Southern boys showed up for the party carrying family heirlooms than what happened with their counterparts in blue. I have read several refererences to the fact that the WBTS was the end of the line for a large number of guns that had come south on the Great Wagon Road, or that had been built in the South. They were converted to percussion at some point, then went out the door with Johnny. He may have made it back, but Grampa's gun didn't...
AN EXCEPTION: Years ago (ca. 1975) when my family was spending our annually two weeks exploring off-the-beaten-track locales in the Smokies, my parents befriended the owners of a little private campground where they stayed. The teenage son, by the name of O'Neal McSwain, had in his possession what looked at first glance to be a Civil War gun, and it DID see action during that period. It actually was a flintlock rifle (I did not know about regional types or schools back then.... O'Neal and I were the same age...) that had been converted to percussion. He DID state, and his family backed him up on this, that his gggg-granddaddy carried it "when he fit at the Battle of Kings Mountain." He and his family would rather kiss a timber rattler than ever tell something untruthful, no one doubted what he said... And....(Drum roll). HE STILL USED IT TO HUNT DEER DURING THE NEW BLACK POWDER SEASON!

tenngun · Jun 12, 2022

Some things come to mind. And mind you none of my guns are carved. Eighteenth century was a time when carving all over was common. Plain working costal traders and fishing boats oft sported ginger bread aft and on the beak.
They didn’t draw plans for ships then but built a model. Many of those survived to today. They have discovered by tuning endoscopes down the hatches that even the insides were finished. When covered was met to never be seen again.
Boxes from the time oft have carving inside, and even horse shoes and ox shoes sported fancy nails
I just have a tear drop and raised molding on my smooth rifle, but if there were money on line I would bet it’s incorrect cr 1770

Cvkotvkse · Jun 13, 2022

One other possible factor hit me like a ton of bricks when I was responding to a different thread yesterday...
I shared a link re: Jacob Albrecht, one of the great Moravian gunmakers. One of the interesting bits of history contained therein (at least. to me, as a Native) was that, with the exception of his military contracts, making rifles for private sale to Indians made up the majority of his work and income, at least for some extended periods. I wonder if that was true for Albrecht's colleagues and contemporaries? If so, it would explain why plain rifles aren't as frequently encountered (assuming that these guns were u carved, so the purchaser would do his own decorating w/ brass tacks, etc. This population of firearms would NOT have been curated and passed down in Native communities and families. Unless they were given as gifts, traded for a horse, wife, etc., or lost in battle, THEY MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE BEEN BURIED WITH THEIR OWNER. This practice of burying prized items as "grave goods"was, and IS, pretty ubiquitous in Native communities that follow a traditional path to any degree...
Does it explain the entire "fancy vs. plain" issue? No, but it might account for a hitherto-unconsidered sampling issue in what we are seeing and trying to interpret.

Coot · Jun 13, 2022

Sometimes overlooked is the fact that a number of the more ornate rifles were produced during economic depressions ie the 1780s and the Panic of 1797. In order to look busy (and therefore presumably skilled & in demand) gunsmiths sometimes added decoration (carving and/or engraving) at no extra cost. Buy a pretty gun here for the same as a plain one down the street. Costs were things that the gunsmith had to pay money to get - locks, brass, etc. his time and the time of any apprentices were not computed on an hourly wage basis as they are today.

Brokennock · Jun 13, 2022

Coot said:
Costs were things that the gunsmith had to pay money to get - locks, brass, etc. his time and the time of any apprentices were not computed on an hourly wage basis as they are today.

Exactly, and we'll put.
Thank you.

Walaw717 · Jun 13, 2022

Interesting thread

tenngun · Oct 10, 2022

Rich vs poor is of note. I am put in mind of gentleman’s fowlers of Georgian England. A little detail around the tang and maybe a bit of molding around the lock plate, but otherwise the wood is pretty free of carving.
On the other hand the metal was highly engraved.
While we can see ivory stocked pistols and the silver Highlanders pistols we see some very plain matched sets from Egg et al at this time. Gold flash pans and platinum touch holes but otherwise plainer then a ‘poor boy’.
Strong hard frontier women might eat corn mush twice a day, but by the smokey flame of a Betty lamp is embroidering her clothes.
Makes you wonder.

waksupi · Oct 10, 2022

From the stand point of being a rifle builder, I always considered the carving, the "gravy" of the building job. Always the most enjoyable part of a build, to me.

oldwood · Oct 10, 2022

In 1975 , a friend of mine had just acquired a Don Allen 5 axis stock carver. We went to his house for a picnic one day. Things got a little slow in the afternoon , so we took a ride not far from his house , to view an old gentleman's longrifle collection. There were about 15 rifles in the old dark log cabin setting against the wall in the corner. Of the 15 , ten were local made Susquehanna Valley percussion rifles. Four were percussion shotguns , but one , was a carved , flint rifle , with sliding wood patch box , from the Lehigh Valley. I was new at the game then ,but still had looked at enough books w/photos to know , this wasn't a plain rifle. It had conservative carving , and a star cheek inlay ,and no engraving .............oldwood

ronaldrothb49 · Oct 11, 2022

If you look at Leonard Reedy's journals he made rifles that ranged in price from $5.00 to $19.00. It was no different then than it is today, you get what you pay for.

LRB · Oct 11, 2022

CTShooter said:
I would think it’s like most tools or armor /weapons we see from history.
The daily use, munition grade, common man items were not usually highly decorated and so pretty much used and disposed of or in the case of metals, probably recycled.

The ones that ended up getting preserved were the pieces made for nobles, royalty and the like, so were more decorated and considered worth saving, were stored in wealthy homes to end up in museums. We get to see beautiful pieces of history, unfortunately the more simple just got lost in time.

lexington1 said:
Here are two Andrew Figthorn rifles. One is relief carved and engraved throughout. The other is plain. View attachment 139048

Both of those shown are carved. One is carved more than the other.

SteveT · Oct 11, 2022

brazosland said:
In the classifieds there is a beautiful .45 Lancaster style rifle with a knockout curly maple stock. But not a single bit of carving on the gun.

As, I suppose, are a lot of the guns us mortals might make from kits. Great wood, excellent guns, but zero carving.

I know Golden Age guns were decorated to help them stand out. But were all guns carved?

Pre Rev war, and even wartime guns, would they all have some carving? Would you see a man in the frontier with a Pennsylvania made gun that didn’t have carving from the maker?

This may not be answerable. I’m just curious if we are doing the equivalent of 23rd Century people reenacting our time and all driving Porches and Teslas.

Gifted a Lancaster country rifle, engraved I. Haines (1772-1792) on barrel, but no carving on wood stock. Two straight lines on patch box. Still trying to figure out how to post photos. Steve in Iowa

lexington1 · Oct 11, 2022

LRB said:
Both of those shown are carved. One is carved more than the other.

I should have clarified that the plainer Figthorn has only tear drops in the lock molding and is carved around the tang, whereas the other is carved extensively.