Alternate Hawken options

[Smokey Plainsman]

Smokey, my man, where do you come up with this stuff--the internet? Or are you just making it up?

What's the basis of "Hawkens [sic] rifles were meant to be mostly carried on horseback, carried by the horse."

Early trade up the Missouri river was conducted with the use of keel boats, not horses. The hunters that provided the meat for the boat crew occasionally used horses, but primarily hunted on foot. True, Ashley's men, the Rocky Mountain Fur Company men, and the American Fur Company men preferred horses when crossing the plains when they could get them and keep them, but the Indians regularly stole their horses and left them afoot.

The horse wasn't much good during trapping season in the mountains. The snow was often drifted and too deep for a horse to get through. Besides, there was so little feed for the horses that they barely were able to stay alive during the winter. The trappers often had to strip bark off of trees to feed their horses. The mountain men ran their trap lines primarily on foot.

William Sublette and Black Harris made at least two trips from the mountains all the way to St. Louis on foot. They left the mountains in winter, and the snow was too deep and the horses in too poor a shape to try to ride.

People traveling with caravans and wagon trains typically walked alongside the wagons. This was the case for the Santa Fe trail and the Oregon, California, and Mormon trails. Sam Hawken himself walked from St. Louis to Denver during the 1859 gold rush. He was 67 at the time.

A typical Hawken rifle weighs little more than a Lancaster trade rifle. During the rendezvous period, most Hawken rifles were full-stock and weighed the same as a trade rifle.

They [Hawken rifles] belonged to a group called the “Plains Rifles”.

"Plains Rifle" is a modern term. It was made up by collectors in the middle of the 20th century and established in our lexicon by Charles E. Hanson, Jr. with his book by that title. Sam Hawken called his rifles "mountain rifles" in his 1882 newspaper interview. Sam's son, William S., frequently ran advertisements in the newspaper for "Mountain rifles... made to order" after he took over the shop in 1855.

They were mostlay [sic] percussion or late flint half stock guns with stout barrels and big bores, made to take down the larger western aminals [sic].

I'm not sure what you are referring to as "late flint half stock guns". American made flint half stock guns are pretty rare. The English were making them, but by the time half stocks became popular in America, we were well into the percussion period.

Really they were mostly custom affairs aside from some of the bigger names so you can get all sorts of barrel lengths.

I'm not sure if you are talking about your generic "Plains Rifle" or specifically about Hawken rifles here. Surviving J&S Hawken rifles commonly have barrel lengths around 38", some as long as 42". Fashions changed over time, and generally barrels were shorter after Jacob's death. They did make some custom rifles, but records show they made rifles for large orders from AFC and from John C. Fremont that weren't necessarily custom rifles.

The Pedersoli Hawken is based off the J&S St. Louis Hawkens and those were all bespoke rifles.

The Pedersoli Hawken more closely resembles a S. Hawken rifle. It was copied from the Uberti Hawken that was copied from the Cherry Corners/Ithaca Hawken which was a generic S. Hawken rifle.

I ain’t your man, pal!

 

[Zonie]

For what it's worth, all of the trapping parties I've read about used horses and mules on their expeditions both to ride and to serve as pack animals.
Their pack horses and mules were necessary to carry their traps and gear and the herd size could number in the dozens.

The only times I've read of trappers walking long distances was when their horses gave out due to a lack of water or due to harsh winter conditions. In those cases, walking was a matter of survival.

To replenish their riding and pack animals more than a few times trappers traded with friendly Indians for horses.

The big bore Mountain rifles or Plains rifles I know of average over .50 caliber and weigh over 12 pounds. Hardly a gun that a person would want to carry by themselves as they walked for hundreds of miles thru the wilderness.

All of this is why I believe the trappers gladly used their horses to get from one place to another and because they were riding the additional weight of their rifles was not a problem for them.

All of this happened before caravans of regular people with wagons ever set foot into the Mountains although several freight parties did venture onto the trail to Santa-Fe. These were traders, not trappers and the guns they carried were not usually the Mountain rifles this topic is discussing.

OK, I'll crawl back into my corner but first I will ask folks to keep their posts on a friendly level. If anyone starts attacking others, their posts will be removed by me.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

the real hawken rife at the n.daK state museum had such a big diam barrel and about 70 cal or more that it cant even be shot from the shoulder. it had to be carried on a horse and it wasnt a trappers gun, it was a buffalo hunters gun. taken off of a pack horse and put on cross sticks to shoot buffalo. yes it was a real hawken from the hawken brothers. was in great shape expect for the muzzle which was grooved in several spots from a dirty ramrod. they carried these rifles them selves any way they could, horses were used by trappers. they didnt drag them along behind them when they moved around. they carried them across the saddle in their laps.

 

[crankshaft]

TV and movies never show the way rifles were actually carried horseback. The Hawken at the JM Davis museum shows much wear at the wrist and mainly on the lower forearm where it rested across the saddle. Also other heavy plains rifles. And pistol/ holster are worn around the waist, never shown hanging over the saddle horn.

 

[Bad Karma]

You hit nail on the head with much of your post except getting out of the brush lol That’s where the elk are ! Early September at 11000 feet can still be warm and they love the dark timber full of blow downs. If I can’t call them out I have to go in. Your paragraph about the psychological affect is exactly right.
I’m really torn on cutting that barrel but as a previous poster said most guns back in the day were custom so why not make mine fit what I need. Or I can just MAN up and carry my gun as is !

I always felt that hunters complaining about the weight of their rifles just needed to “embrace the suck”. But then I was a young recently separated Marine in the best condition of my life... running up and down the mostly vertical terrain of the Colorado Rockies was something I’d been doing for much of my life.

Years passed, I’ve gained experience and a few injuries along the way and “embracing the suck “ doesn’t have the same appeal these days. Nowadays I prefer a 22-26” barrel in .54 or .58. If you mount a good peep as close to your eye as is manageable you’ll still have good field accuracy with all the killing power you need in the black timber.

 

[MDHunter]

T

I always felt that hunters complaining about the weight of their rifles just needed to “embrace the suck”. But then I was a young recently separated Marine in the best condition of my life... running up and down the mostly vertical terrain of the Colorado Rockies was something I’d been doing for much of my life.

Years passed, I’ve gained experience and a few injuries along the way and “embracing the suck “ doesn’t have the same appeal these days. Nowadays I prefer a 22-26” barrel in .54 or .58. If you mount a good peep as close to your eye as is manageable you’ll still have good field accuracy with all the killing power you need in the black timber.

Thank you for your service! That’s exactly where I’m at with it. I’ve carried it and killed with it and now just want something a little lighter and a little shorter. I’m not going to hang it up but will only carry it when terrain and conditions allow because I still love that gun.

 

[Bad Karma]

T

Thank you for your service! That’s exactly where I’m at with it. I’ve carried it and killed with it and now just want something a little lighter and a little shorter. I’m not going to hang it up but will only carry it when terrain and conditions allow because I still love that gun.

It’s been my pleasure and honor.

They’re beautiful rifles, no doubt about it. I’m in the process of building my perfect old guy elk rifle. 15/16” x 24” and .54 caliber with a slimmer maple or walnut stock. I may have the stock I need, (more on that later) and then I can work on the barrel and lock. I’d like to come in around 7#. We’ll see if that works out. I used to have an investarms .58 carbine and like a fool sold it. I believe it weighed right at 7.5 pounds and could handle conicals as well as round ball. If you see one of those, run, don’t walk, to your atm...

Or there’s this... https://www.gunbroker.com/item/808873025. It’s got the single trigger which usually needs work to be acceptable but otherwise looks like just the ticket!

 

[Rudyard]

All this merits and de merits of hunting rifles is interesting . I have made both flint & percussion Hawken' rifles for patrons .But wont lug such needless weight up our hills even six pounds is enough and my pet has a 26" round swamped barrel of 50 cal mid 18th flintlock it runs just 5 pounds . You carry a gun in steep forest country some times over a week But you shoot it rarely and as oft as not within 30 yards .This is Deer & Wild pigs ,ferrol goats ect .We have no Bears.in New Zealand . If I could go 4 pounds I would .If hard to do in a rifled gun . And the Conservation Department don't like you using a smoothbore .mindful of the Native pigeon no doubt . Regards Rudyard

 

[BlackHillsBob]

a man who cant carry a good weight rifle to hunt with needs to retire. a good weight rifle doesnt move around when you put it to the shoulder or kick like a paper weight one. cowboy up or get out of the game. stop crying ma ma and hunt. a good weight rifle is worth its weight in gold. cow boy up or stop crying.

 

[Rudyard]

My dear Mr black hills, Do enjoy your Needless weight lugging idiocy. Ive covered enough Bush miles to know what Ime talking about . Regards Rudyard

 

[Walkingeagle]

a man who cant carry a good weight rifle to hunt with needs to retire. a good weight rifle doesnt move around when you put it to the shoulder or kick like a paper weight one. cowboy up or get out of the game. stop crying ma ma and hunt. a good weight rifle is worth its weight in gold. cow boy up or stop crying.

Mr BHB,
You sound like a person with a ton of blow but zero show. My bet is you wouldn't know the bush from your back yard sir. I have carried rifles my entire life, through work and recreation in the real bush of our far north. I will take the lightest weight rifle I can reasonably get every time!
Walk

 

[arcticap]

a man who cant carry a good weight rifle to hunt with needs to retire. a good weight rifle doesnt move around when you put it to the shoulder or kick like a paper weight one. cowboy up or get out of the game. stop crying ma ma and hunt. a good weight rifle is worth its weight in gold. cow boy up or stop crying.

I would hope that no person feels that way about any disabled, youth, elderly or female hunter.
Modern "mountain rifles" are often made to meet the very lightweight needs and specifications of hunters of all flavors.
Perhaps there are hunting pistols that would suffice for those who have limitations or preferences for whatever reasons.
It reminds me of the Pedersoli Bounty Hunter .50 percussion pistol that I saw on sale with a 16 3/8" barrel and weighs 3 lbs..--->>> https://www.wholesalehunter.com/Product/Details/11209725

 

[WRustyLane]

I always felt that hunters complaining about the weight of their rifles just needed to “embrace the suck”. But then I was a young recently separated Marine in the best condition of my life... running up and down the mostly vertical terrain of the Colorado Rockies was something I’d been doing for much of my life.

Years passed, I’ve gained experience and a few injuries along the way and “embracing the suck “ doesn’t have the same appeal these days. Nowadays I prefer a 22-26” barrel in .54 or .58. If you mount a good peep as close to your eye as is manageable you’ll still have good field accuracy with all the killing power you need in the black timber.

Wow, I haven't heard "embrace the suck" since 1973 when I left the "suck". Semper Fi to ya, ya dang old jarhead! Bet you ain't been called a jarhead since you left the good ole USMC.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

never mentioned the disabled, as a matter of fact the nicest fuzzys ive ever got in muzzleloading was helping a disabled man from penn get his deer. by phone and email i taught him how to do paperpatched bullets. his son got him a blind and took him their before sunrise one morning and set him on a nice stool and left. a half hour after sun rise he called his son to come and get him as he got a big fat doe at 100 yards. when his family called me to tell me about it, i teared up. it was his first deer and he put the bullet right where he wanted and he was unable to walk at all. it gave him joy and the rest of us joy also. when i say cowboy up i mean the rest of us who can move a little. until i get my left hip surgery i cowboy up every time i stand up. im planting a garden with a cane in my right hand. i like a heavier rifle, doesnt wiggle when you aim it.

 

[Cowboy]

a man who cant carry a good weight rifle to hunt with needs to retire. a good weight rifle doesnt move around when you put it to the shoulder or kick like a paper weight one. cowboy up or get out of the game. stop crying ma ma and hunt. a good weight rifle is worth its weight in gold. cow boy up or stop crying.

Did someone say cowboy up?

I’m here! LOL

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[BlackHillsBob]

your from cody, you understand what im talking about. people need to cowboy up and move on and do something.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Take a few moments and read up on Henry Leman, he made plains rifles by the dozen, as well as flintlock mountain rifles for the American Indian, many rifles were .58+ caliber.
Fred

 

[Grenadier1758]

Well, sometimes its time to "cowboy up", by knowing its time to replace the heavy rifle with one that is lighter in weight. One may have to "embrace the suck" by asking for help that is needed.

There is too much to enjoy in this sport. Let's not inflict unnecessary pain on ourselves.

 

[jimirwin]

I built my first Hawken built using the Cherry Corners kit of parts and GR Douglas barrel in 54 cal in 1974/5. The kit came with a blueprint of Kit Carson's Hawken, which I followed assiduously. Cherry Corners sold to Ithaca, which sold to Navy Arms, which sold to Great Western (Santa Fe) which sold to Uberti which remains quite true to the Cherry Corners design. I have built several others since. My crowning jewel I built using the kit of parts from the original Hawken shop in St Louis. A copy of Jim Bridger's heavier 54 cal tapered barrel by Bill Large. I've seen & held a few original Hawken Rocky Mountain rifles (So they are known. The Hawken shop was a fairly large (by standards of the day) and they made whatever the customer wanted to order. So there was a fair amount of variation in design, but there WAS a typical style called the Rocky Mountain rifle. A deceased friend's original recently sold at auction for $49,000.

It sickens me to see the rifles marketed and sold under the name Hawken. Even more to see some referred to as "Hawkins". The only widely available commercial rifles to come close to true Hawken design are the JM Browning Mountain rifle and the Lyman Great Plains and the Uberti.

 

[Bad Karma]

Wow, I haven't heard "embrace the suck" since 1973 when I left the "suck". Semper Fi to ya, ya dang old jarhead! Bet you ain't been called a jarhead since you left the good ole USMC.

Haha! Well you would lose that bet Marine. I’m lucky enough to work with a couple devil dogs. We’re vet friendly here, we’ve even got a veteran of the chair force in the shop!

Wrt to “cowboying up” there’s a time and place for it. Recreational hunting probably isn’t it. I’ve participated in enough of it for three lifetimes...