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Canoe gun?

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Bushwacker30

32 Cal.
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
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I have a 66cal. 22 inch barrel ,flint ,trade gun type .Lott lock . my question is was there ever such a thing? the short barrel would be handy if you wanted to shoot your canoe or partner !
 
Oh no! Again? :shocked2: :shocked2: :shocked2:

My goodness, why don´t we put all together?:
Can a Canoe gun only be loaded by blowing down the barrel... - or some thread like that?
 
romeoh said:
Oh no! Again? :shocked2: :shocked2: :shocked2:

My goodness, why don´t we put all together?:
Can a Canoe gun only be loaded by blowing down the barrel... - or some thread like that?

How about "Can a brass-framed canoe gun made in India with a lead wrapped flint only be loaded by blowing down the barrel?" :rotf:
 
:thumbsup:

And by the way, does it make a difference between loading in a canoe going up the stream and one going down?
What would be historical more correct?

PS: Don´t get me wrong Tall-TBushwacker, but we had those dicussions already - again and again. You can start up a civil war here with it.
Nothing wrong with you and your gun! I would gladly have one on my own, sure fun to use.
But your question is Dynamite. Like questions about lead or leather wrapped flint, India made guns, brass and the atomic bomb of all questions: blowing down the barrel or not.
Ya simply said "Jehovha" :haha:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYkbqzWVHZI[/youtube]
 
Tall-T. To summarize about a dozen threads and a number of posts that sometimes bordered on acrimonious.

1) There probably was one or two guns like that in the history of the world. Guns that were cut down because the barrel had a flaw or got worn out at the barrel.

2) Shooting one is like taking a fat girl for a ride on a motorcycle, a lot of fun but you hope nobody sees you.

3) Some manufacturer's are making "canoe guns" or "blanket guns" because there are people that will pay money for them.

4) Probably not historically accurate in the sense that there doesn't seem to be anything written about them until the 1990's.

That being said, it sounds like a fun gun to shoot. The Lott locks have a reputation for being a rock crusher but you probably won't be shooting much competition with it. A short barrel like that is pretty much meant for buckshot or #4 bird shot up close and personal.

Many Klatch
 
There are some historical records for the Hudson Bay company ordering short barreled guns for the Western Canada trade in .66 caliber- not the larger Brown Bess in .75 caliber. To find a gun with a barrel as short as 22 inches, you usually will be looking at a gun well abused, and well used, where some damage occurred close to the muzzle, and the barrel and stock were cut back to save the rest of the gun for some limited uses. Its highly doubtful that guns were originally made with barrels that short. At least, the arguments here have found no documentation for such a gun, other than what I have mentioned above.

That short barrel will still burn more than 85 grains behind a Lead Round Ball efficiently, and that is a lot of lead to be sending out the muzzle.

Within 50 yards you should be able to make meat. The handicap is the short length of the barrel, and the short sight radius such a barrel gives you. A lot of deer are killed inside 50 yards every year. You are basically shooting a 16 ga. shotgun, BTW. That means the ball you fire will weigh close to ONE OUNCE of lead. Nothing to be sneezed at. :thumbsup:
 
Let's keep the record straight........
1) There probably was one or two guns like that in the history of the world. Guns that were cut down because the barrel had a flaw or got worn out at the barrel.
Sorry but here in the west original short barreled cut down fusils and/or rifles (Chief Joseph carried a 29" barreled Leman as late as the 1870's) even today exist in several western museums and private collections in far more numbers than one or two.
As to why they were built: most of it is speculation - partly due to blown barrels, but considering the fact that there are hundreds of hide scrapers made from barrel pieces it may have to do as mmuch with keeping up with the Joneses - i.e. "mother" demanding "pa" cut down his barrel so she can have a metal scraper like the rest of the girls - not so far fetched when one understands the importance of the buffalo robe trade from the 1820's on. Secondly such guns were and are very handy when used for running buffalo on horseback, which was the preferred method to hunt them from at least the 1820's until the late 1860's - it's the method used by Buffalo Bill when he garnered that name and that method is very well documented if you take the time to do the research.

3) Some manufacturer's are making "canoe guns" or "blanket guns" because there are people that will pay money for them.
The same reason makers build Brown Besses, fowlers, Pa/Ky rifles, etc. and while the names "canoe or blanket" gun are a marketing tool and not "period" that does not make the guns being built so.........and it seems it's those name inparticular that gets folks knickers in a knot even more so than their perceived notion of the "uselessness" of such guns whether they have any experience with them or not........

4) Probably not historically accurate in the sense that there doesn't seem to be anything written about them until the 1990's
With all due respect you need to broaden your reading base - short barreled fusils and later rifles were written about long before the 1990's albeit not referred to by the canoe or blanket gun name - the canoe gun name admittedly being a sales term coined IIRC by Curley Gostomski. Such short barreled guns also appear in pre-1900 artwork, including later period stuff by Charlie Russell since they were still being used at that time, the 1880-1890's, by the Metis to hunt with.

For some reason it seems that when ever this topic arises some folks (easterners and/or 18th century types especially) seem to get a kick out of showing some form of disdain for a type of gun (and no it was not manufatured as such, but so what?) that can be documented as to being quite widely used in the west and was in fact an important part of the history out here. IMO if you're not interested in a subject why does it behoove one to make rude comments to those that are interested in bonafide history?? - a history that did not stop in the 1700's and east of the Mississippi........

rant off...... :hmm:
 
thanks guys ,I didn't mean to kick the scab off ,just didn't know i'm new to the forum,but not new to smokepoles . seem's to me somebody would have figure out a short gun worked better in a pole thicket ,I have! and didn't take 300 years to do it. I figure if I hit a gong over 50 yards with any of my smoothbores,its outhouse luck! I have long rifles,short ones,even a cannon,so about got it covered, per-suckion,and flint,pistols too ,I'm not lost ,just corn-fused
 
See, like I said, it has raised some heat in the past :grin: .

LaBonte, I think disdain is a little strong a word. I purposely didn't get involved in the arguments because I don't have a lot of knowledge about the minutia of weaponry west of the Mississippi. I was just summarizing what has been posted on here.

Many Klatch
 
Many Klatch said:
See, like I said, it has raised some heat in the past :grin: .

LaBonte, I think disdain is a little strong a word. I purposely didn't get involved in the arguments because I don't have a lot of knowledge about the minutia of weaponry west of the Mississippi. I was just summarizing what has been posted on here.

Many Klatch

Many Klatch - I didn't mean to pick on you - you're answers were more tongue in cheek (although I gotta say my wife of 29 years is pleasingly plump now and I'm more than happy to be seen with her anywhere, anytime :thumbsup: ) - the disdain remark was more regarding some of the other posts made here in the past regarding the subject - no offense meant :v
 
i.e. "mother" demanding "pa" cut down his barrel so she can have a metal scraper like the rest of the girls - not so far fetched when one understands the importance of the buffalo robe trade from the 1820's on.

So, why not give her the hacksaw blade to use as a scraper and keep the barrel long? :haha:
 
"So, why not give her the hacksaw blade to use as a scraper and keep the barrel long?"

Hacksaw blades were probably harder to come by. Besides, one hacksaw blade could "convert" several long guns.
 
Stumpkiller said:
i.e. "mother" demanding "pa" cut down his barrel so she can have a metal scraper like the rest of the girls - not so far fetched when one understands the importance of the buffalo robe trade from the 1820's on.

So, why not give her the hacksaw blade to use as a scraper and keep the barrel long? :haha:


Nah, just give them to my daughters. They went one way on a rabbit hunt, each armed with single shot shotguns, while I went the other. When we met up an hour later, both of their barrels had been "shortened" 4-6 inches.

"What happened?" sezz I.

"I slipped and got snow down the barrel and tried to shoot it out," sezz daughter #1.

"And I told her she must have got a rock too, so I packed some snow in mine and shot it to show her that snow wouldn't do that," sezz daughter #2. :shocked2:
 
With respect - I'd reckon you've never scraped a buffalo hide?
They are big and also thick and the scrapers are used not only to remove meat and fat like you do on a deer hide, but to actually scrape the hide thin. The more weight and width to the scraper (up to a point) the better and a piece of gun barrel makes an excellent scraper, especially when compared to the original bone ones. It is hard, back breaking work to tan a buffalo hide and the NDNz were trading them to the whites in the thousands per year by the mid-1830's, so any tool that would make the job easier/more efficient was a valued tool. FWIW - they also removed the NW gun buttplates and used them for scrapers as well, but brass doesn't hold an edge as well as iron or steel does and wears out faster.
A hacksaw blade or even a file (flat, triangular and tapered files all show up on the western fur trade lists - can't remember seeing a hacksaw on them???), which is what would have more likely been used by the NDNz to shorten barrels - neither would make a very good buffalo hide scraper.

Still it is only a theory, but one based on looking at hundreds of such scrapers and understanding the demands of the times and place. Unless we find hidden away some where written confirmation we'll never really know...on the other hand keeping up with the Joneses by NDNz of the time is well documented so for me and other students of the western fur trade I've discussed this with it remains an intriguing if unsubstantiated theory........Besides which a short barrel is much handier on horseback at any time, but especially when running buffalo.....
While I've never gotten the chance to actually hunt the critters from horseback, I, along with several friends over the years, have "practiced" what would need to be done on horseback at a full gallop, so I have at least some first hand experience of doing the shooting and reloading and a short barrel of 20-30" was found to be optimum dependent on one's height - I liked a 26" barrel best myself, but I'm 6' - taller than the norm for back then.
 
Tall-TBushwacker said:
thanks guys ,I didn't mean to kick the scab off ,just didn't know i'm new to the forum,but not new to smokepoles .
Don´t worry, and welcome to the fire! :hatsoff:


Tall-TBushwacker said:
seem's to me somebody would have figure out a short gun worked better in a pole thicket ,I have! and didn't take 300 years to do it.
Jep, others might have before. Also back then.
But think of how long it took to make public believe that the earth circles around the sun. People were burned (or stoned probably :rotf: ) because saying so without a proof.
Same here, no proof for any whatsoever position in this question. :surrender:

Again, don´t worry. :thumbsup:
Lean back in your chair and watch with me how the thread goes... :wink:
 
OK, my turn! It's the terminology, "Canoe gun" how ridiculous. Strictly a modern term. There never was a gun made specifically for canoe use, nor is there any historical reference to any. I have spent many days hunting out of a canoe with a Carolina gun with a 48" barrel (Same gun that the Indians used in the south and south east.) I experienced no problems loading, shooting or handling the gun from a canoe. The British Government and the Colonial traders were supplying the Indians with the guns that they preferred, most of them having 42" to 48" barrels from 1750 - 1780. If the eastern Indians wanted guns with 20" barrels to hunt in thickets they would have been demanding them from the traders....didn't happen. You send dogs through thickets to flush your game as you stand out side the thicket, you don't walk through it with a gun.
Now, in the west there is no doubt NW guns were cut down in both the barrel and the buttstock to run buffalo on horse back. I can think of no better gun for that use.Now, if everybody wanted to call these modern made cut down trade guns "Buffalo Guns" I could live with it.
"Canoe Gun" is nothing more than a marketing tool for modern day gun hacks to sell their product to an uneducated customer.
 
Tall-TBushwacker said:
I have a 66cal. 22 inch barrel ,flint ,trade gun type .Lott lock . my question is was there ever such a thing? the short barrel would be handy if you wanted to shoot your canoe or partner !

Clealry there is such a thing you have one. :wink:

It is a modern marketing creation. Have fun with it.
 
One time this came up and someone had some docums for 19th century short barrels from the maker, 2' if I recall, this is a very period sensitive issue I think that is where the spittin'& hissin' gets started, 18th century such a gun would likely be a repair unless it was a coach gun later they were made to order with the short barrels but the canoe thing is really missleading to folks getting started and wanting a taste of history.Personaly I had a 33" 12 bore fowler I hunted Grouse and Quail with in the Mts,I now use a 44" barreled fusil and have had no noticable difference, most of the birds are still flying after I shoot.
 
O.K. fellers ,I'll re-name it! how about "Bull Boat Gun" .It floats and made of Buffalo after my little step-sister chewed the barrel off ,to make a scraper! sure do like all the imput . I've have shot off my horse before,reloadin was out of question for next mile or so.I've shot out of a canoe also,things got a soggy! I'll bet if I shot out of a bullboat I'd get dizzy. Let's go have a drink! I'm not going to say what tho ,worms,worms,worms!
 

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