First Gun Build Questions

[kaintuck]

duh!...sorry, didn't know it was a preinlet stock.......(I MUST move the tom's litter box from beneath my work bench...the fumes are getting to me!)

sounds like this rifle will be a nice fitted rifle with all the attention to detail your giving her!
keep it up.....this will be only the 1st one...."resitance is futile"...you WILL make more~~~~

 

[jdkerstetter]

duh!...sorry, didn't know it was a preinlet stock

I can see how that could get by you when reading through 119 replies.... :grin: Your's was 120 and this is 121......Enjoy, J.D.

 

Okay, g ot it with regards to how the barrel should fit in the channel. Do I need to polish the barrel before I start fitting it though? The Green Mountain barrel seems smooth enough I think, so I don't know if that is a necessary step.

JD, also, you say don't worry about the inletting black just yet... then how do I know where to remove some wood? Should I just sand the sides regardless? The sides go in just a bit in places, but not all the way down.

Kaintuck, I know resistance is futile...

 

[jdkerstetter]

To "draw file" the barrel or not? Most Green Mountains I have are suitable for browning as received. You don't want it too smooth for browning. This has to be a judgement call on your part as even a photo probably won't help. You are probably OK.

Inletting black on the barrel sides? You can if your wish but I have found it can give false readings, especially if the barrel cants at all going in or out.

We assume the barrel is straight. Using a long flat file or long hard sanding block length wise in the channel along the side flats will keep them straight too. A little at a time until the barrel will fit down in the groove. I have heard where some guys will even take a short section of barrel and wrap it once in sandpaper to use back and forth in the channel.

There's a million ways to skin a cat. Sorry Kaintuck! :grin: Enjoy, J.D.

 

Maybe I misunderstood. I didn't mean to blacken the sides of the barrel, but to blacken the bottom three flats of the barrel. In your post above JD you said

Yes. If applied to the side it can give false readings as it's slid in and out. Kaintuck gave good advise on the fact that the sides don't have to be all that tight. A single sheet of paper gap is fine on the sides as when you finish the stock, wax the channel and brown the barrel...walla, no noticable gap. Don't worry about applying black to the bottome flats until you get the barrel in past the sides...save you some mess.

So the question is, do I use inletting black at this stage (just on the bottom flats) or not? If not?

 

[jdkerstetter]

So the question is, do I use inletting black at this stage (just on the bottom flats) or not? If not?

I wouldn't bother until it you get the side flats in. The bottom won't be making contact until then so why deal with the extra mess.

Inlet straight down working on the verticle sides of the channel only until the barrel won't go down anymore then black.

I find once the sides down as far as they will go and black the bottom of the barrel that a couple or three large spring clamps are handy to hold the barrel in while I tap, tap, tap with a rubber mallet make up for any flex in the wood...the light fore end of a precarve can be a little springy....(and that's why when you build from a blank you leave as much wood up front during this stage as you can...so it's good and stiff).

I can't reitterate enough how important it is the the barrel goes in straight each time....it's easy to get it cocked in the inlet and that's a pain to fix. I had a precarve that once that the channel was cocked to the right...argh!!!:cursing:

If the barrel doesn't go in and out straight when doing the bottom flats you will get false readings with the inletting black. It can be tough trying to do this while piching what little there is exposed of the side flats. To facilitate raising the barrel up and down I find it handy to put a length of dowel in the muzzle and make a hook from heavy wire to put in the breech end as handles. I grab each of these with my fingers and put pressure with the pads of my thumbs on the top flat to prevent the barrel from rotating and pull straight up. Might work for you.

Remember this is free advice so it's worth what you paid. Some guys do it differently, I'm sure. Dissenting opinions are welcome. Anyone??? Enjoy, J.D.

 

[kaintuck]

" I had a precarve that once that the channel was cocked to the right...argh!!!":cursing:

OH NO....JD that was built in 'OFFSET' :surrender:

I think it's time to lay down the tools....and just look at your barrel/wood for a couple of days....study what's going on......see what it needs......just look for a day or two!

 

[Zonie]

As was said, the barrel at this stage of the build should slip fairly easily into the barrel channel.

Do NOT use a chisel to remove wood from the 2 sides of the barrel channel.
It will create large gouges where it has removed too much wood.

Get a small piece of a 1 X 2 board or a piece of wood that will easily fit down into the barrel channel. (A 1 X 2 board is actually 3/4" X 1 1/2").

Get a soft lead pencil.

Keeping the sides of the barrel parallel with the stocks barrel channel, lightly start the barrel into the groove.
Notice any locations where the wood seems tight and look for any locations that look loose.

Use the pencil to mark the tight areas.

Use some 80 or 100 grit sandpaper on the block and carefully enlarge the width of the channel in the areas that were tight.
Keep the block square with the world so it does not 'bell mouth' the groove.

Work slowly and patiently, stopping to check the looseness of the barrel and remarking the tight areas.

When you have the clearance right, you won't be able to actually see a gap between the wood and the barrel but the barrel will (if it is lined up properly) fit easily into the channel.

Once this fit is finished, you can start working on the bottom flats of the barrel channel by using the inletting black to identify the high points.

Follow this link to see the gun in the bottom of my posts
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/84290/post/84290/fromsearch/1/

 

That's a beautiful weapon Zonie....

Guess it's time to work on my patience and just slowly sand until the barrel slips in. No sense wasting a fine piece of curly maple.

 

Okay, sides of the barrel channel are just perfect now. Time to start using the inletting black on the bottom tomorrow if time permits. In just looking at it, it looks good as is, but I will check it with the inletting black and see what happens.

 

[Zonie]

At least 1/2 of the barrels side flats should be below the edge of the wood.

Slightly more is okay, less is not.

For a 7/8" octagon barrel this value is .181 (or 3/16").

 

Thanks Zonie... I will make sure to check this.

 

Also, once I get the barrel fully inlet, I believe the lock is the next thing to tackle. Since it is 90% inlet already, do I need to fully disassemble the lock to fit this to the stock? I know the lock plate and the mortice are not exactly the same shape (not quite sure why since it was supposedly preinlet for the Manton lock) but I notice that the tail of the lock (or whatever it is called... the V shaped part of the lock plate just to the rear of the hammer) is not exactly the same.


Thanks,

 

[jdkerstetter]

Some guys inlet the lock fully assembled. Most find it easier to take it apart, inlet the plate and then add parts inletting them one by one.

Right now you only have to worry about inletting the plate so that the bolster is flat against the side barrel flat. Once you achieve that you can set your barrel back until the mark indicating your vent location aligns with the center of the lock's pan....then reinstall your breech and inlet it.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[jdkerstetter]

At least 1/2 of the barrels side flats should be below the edge of the wood.

Slightly more is okay, less is not.....

Please clarify. Do you mean at this stage or as a finished rifle.

At this stage one meerly needs to make sure that the barrel is fully seated down in the channel. How much wood is up the sides of the barrel at this stage will depend on how much wood was left after "pre-carving" the stock.

Ultimately, in final shaping of the fore stock, how much barrel is in or out of the wood depends on the "school" of building being followed. Some Lancasters had their barrels "buried" in the wood but most schools had more than half the barrel out of the wood...even if only slightly so.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

So when I take the lock apart, do I need any special tools for the mainspring or the frizzen spring? Also, as I am finishing up the barrel channel, am I correct that I DON'T need to worry about the breech end of the barrel (w/out the breech plug in it) dosen't need to fit squarely into the back of the barrel channel? I know it needs to at some point, but I would assume that is after I get the lock all squared away?? I have about a 1/8" to 1/4" gap at this point.

 

[jdkerstetter]

So when I take the lock apart, do I need any special tools for the mainspring or the frizzen spring?

Yes, a mainspring vise. I recommend the one from R.E. Davis...cost a little more but with the sliding bar handle is superior to the ones with the thumbscrew: http://www.redaviscompany.com/0320.html

Also, as I am finishing up the barrel channel, am I correct that I DON'T need to worry about the breech end of the barrel (w/out the breech plug in it) dosen't need to fit squarely into the back of the barrel channel? I know it needs to at some point, but I would assume that is after I get the lock all squared away?? I have about a 1/8" to 1/4" gap at this point.

Correct. We've been through this :hmm: ...OK, one more time. Get the lock inlet all the way, until the lock bolster/pan is flush up against the barrel side flat. After you've done that then set your barrel back flush against the end of the channel with the mark you made indicating where the vent will go lined up with the center of the pan on the lock plate. Got it?

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Zonie]

Please clarify. Do you mean at this stage or as a finished rifle.

At this stage.
The barrel isn't going to be any deeper in the channel than it is now.

If any wood needs to be removed from the top of the forestock later on, it's just going to expose more of the barrels side flats so as I said,

"At least 1/2 of the barrels side flats should be below the edge of the wood."

 

[jdkerstetter]

Not to be argumentative....well, not to much, anyway :wink: ....but isn't that statement a little non sequitur?

If the builder has the barrel all the way down in the channel, how much of the side flat is exposed or not exposed is determined by how much wood was on the blank...or in this case the pre-carve...from the beginning. It may or may not be half or better.

My guess, based on a few precarves, is that it's more but it really doesn't matter as long as it's seated full depth and we won't know that until the black is on the bottom of the channel. :v

Enjoy, J.D.

 

So when I take the lock apart, do I need any special tools for the mainspring or the frizzen spring?

Yes, a mainspring vise. I recommend the one from R.E. Davis...cost a little more but with the sliding bar handle is superior to the ones with the thumbscrew: http://www.redaviscompany.com/0320.html

Damn... I can't just use needle nose pliers or needle nose vise grips as a backup?