Flint or Perc.?

[Wildpony]

First off I have to say I love how you guys are alwayse so nice to newbies.

In the last topic I posted we discussed different options I had in selecting my first black powder firearm kit. One thing I failed to discuss, however, was whether I should go with a flinter or a percussion.

I have pretty much decided that I am either going to build a Leman or Hawken kit to start out with. My question is, what type of lock (flint or perc.) do you guys think I should go with?

I am interested to hear any number of reasons you have for your opinions ranging from technical to pure nostalgia.

What I like about the flint is the fact that it is a less dependent technology than the percussion (I like independant). What worrys me about it is reliability issues, it possibly not having as quicka and consistant an ignition time as a perc., and the possbility of shying from the flash thereby developing a bad shooting habbit.

What I like about the Perc. is obvoiously reliability, speed and consistancy of ignition, and the simple streamlined overall appearance of the finished firearm. What turns me off is that it is a more dependent technology.

So I'll leave it up to you guys to advise me on this. Thanks for all the enteresting conversatoin and information.

P.S. Any reason I should go with a .54 over .58 caliber?
I have shot PRB's in .58 in my Zouave and like the way they feel when firing aswell as their down range effects but I cant regulate my sights for them . That is the whole reason I am wanting to build a deticated PRB rifle. Just thought I'd go with a .58 if I can find a kit with a .58 barrel for a good price.

So what do you guys say? Also can you recomend a good kit or kit manufacturer for the rifle you advise me to consider? I know Track of the Wolf has some appealing kits but just figured you guys might have a better ear to the ground on more obscure but desirable destributors.

 

[TN.Frank]

A properly set up flintlock is just as reliable as any percussion gun out there, in fact, the lack of needing caps makes it more reliable because all ya' need is a good, sharp rock to shoot your gun. Either way as long as it's a traditional side lock gun it's a winner in my book. :thumbsup:

 

[jdixon]

I second what TN Frank said about the flinter. I prefer them myself, just more fun to shoot. The only solid advantage I see in a cap lock is for serious NMLRA style target shooting. A cap lock is usually (not always) what you see being used in these matches when they allow either style, cap or flint. The more consistent ignition of a cap lock gun is preferred by many as this eliminates just one more variable (albeit a small one)and allows more concentration on accurate shot placement.

.54 or .58 - J.R.'s opinion here - If hunting is all you plan on doing with this gun, very little target or fun shooting, go with the .58. However, if you want to do target shooting with it on a semi-regular basis, go with the .54. The .54 is big enough to take most North American game and it is going to be cheaper and more comfortable to shoot than a .58.

Recommendation on kits - I'll let others on here tackle that one for you.

 

[MikeChapin]

My prejudice is for the flint. I just like shooting them better. Out of the six rifles I shoot a lot, four the them are flint and those four get the most use.

I just looked on TOW and see that they have kits for both the fullstock Hawken and Leman in both .54 and .58. My druthers would be for the .54. I built my flint Hawken in .58 because I wanted to be able to shoot in the local Big Bore matches not because I needed anything extra for hunting.

I have seen a .54 drop a buffalo with one shot so it should handle anything you plan to hunt. The .54 is a more versitile and a little easier on the body for shooting all day. That caliber was used in most western weapons, from Hawkens to trade rifles, back in the day. They found that was a optimum caliber for power and economy.

 

[riverrat43]

As TNFrank said, a properly tuned flintlock is just as reliable as percussion. Mine is also pretty durn near as fast if I listen to my rifle and prime properly. I've had many a person at the range say something to the effect of, "I didn't know a flintlock could fire so fast". Truly, often times I think its as fast as a cap. As far as shying away from the flash, after some practice you'll probably never notice it, at least I don't. I just concentrate on the trigger breaking, the instant BANG and follow thru. Just like shooting any rifle. Go for the flint..you'll really like it. Just my $.02 worth.

 

[Brasilikilt]

I posted some questions regarding the 2 same rifle kits: The Full stock Hawken and the Leman trade rifle.
After several questions, I decided on getting the Leman as most people I talked to suggested it as an ideal rifle for a first build.

Think of the different side locks as people you work with. Percussion is a good guy, reliable, gets the job done, but is a little on the boring side.
Flintlock has his quirks, sometimes he isn't in the best mood, but is all around much more fun and interesting to work with.

Hope that makes sense

Iain

 

[Goldhunter]

How experienced are you at building from a kit?

Some are easier than others. If you want a good functional gun without being 100% historically correct, the Lyman Great Plains Rifles are great guns! Many also love TC Hawkens. Both of which come in kits. I have built both. The TC was easier than the GPR. I like the .54cal. Great low recoil for target work but can also be used on Elk :thumbsup:

Many gun builders say the Hawken is a difficult kit and I have seen some recommend the Leman over the Hawken as a first build.

I own two percussions and the next one I build will be a flintlock. I think you will be happy with either. But be warned, ML building is addictive. :grin: You build one, you'll want to build another.

My .02 cents

 

[Richard Hare.]

I too would go with flint.
Might take a bit longer to get used to it, but the satisfaction far outweighs the trouble!
Re flint, I'd say get the best lock you can.
Don't settle for a cheap import.
more folks have been put off flint through lousy locks than any other way.
Mine just go off well and fast, no matter the weather.
Think JimChambers makes some of the best...

Pukka

 

I too vote for the flint, and if you were to use the L&R lock that's recommended with most of the kits from Track, MBS, and Pecatonica, it can be converted from one form to the other. Brazilikilt explained it pretty good, and Frank also has a point in not needing caps, in fact a well tuned lock will work on one grade of powder, without the need for a finer grade. The only drawback if there even is one is that you need real black powder, that smelly, sulfurery stuff, and not that wannabe pretend stuff. Go Flint Rocklocks Rock. Bill

 

[musketman]

I have pretty much decided that I am either going to build a Leman or Hawken kit to start out with. My question is, what type of lock (flint or perc.) do you guys think I should go with?

A percussion cap is a one time use item, whereas a flint can be used many times over, some as many as 100+ shots...

If you are out in the woods and drop your tin of percussion caps in the stream you are crossing and they get wet ot washed away, your hunt is over, you can almost always find a sparking stone somewhere if needed, once you know where to look that is...

If a flint gets wet, dry it off and it will still work...

Also, you can start a camp fire with a flint lock easier than you can a cap lock...

 

[Old Ironsights]

I agree. My Percussion guns are for fun, but my Flint is my "Survival" gun.

If I could grab only one gun to use for survival for the rest of my life it would be my Flint.

 

[MikeFromON]

I don't know what the laws are like where you are, but here in Canada, flintlock muzzleloading rifles are not considered firearms by the federal government and are so are not subject to any sort of regulation whatsoever. Percussion rifles on the other hand, are considered firearms and so you must have a proper licence to buy and own one and buy caps and must obey all the laws that go with that and you must also register it with the federal government when you buy it. Anybody with the money in his pocket can buy flints, powder, patches, and balls here, but only somebody with a federal licence can buy percussion caps. This is just one reason I own a flintlock, not a percussion lock, rifle :grin: .

 

[gmww]

Just to be different from the other posters as I have no experience with Flinters. When I started, I chose percussion. I had to teach myself for the most part. Knowing that I have a healthy frustration factor, I didn't want to start out with the flinter as I was worried about not getting it to spark right causing me to give up on Muzzle loading all together.

So for me I did the Keep It Simple Stupid (K.I.S.S.) method to avoid frustration. With all that said, I hope to eventually get myself a flinter. Your results may vary. :hatsoff:

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Although I started with percussion several decades ago, the affair did not last long. As the historical aspect weighs heavily with me, I opted for the flinters.

Historically speaking, the nipple guns had a run of only about 40 years, versus over two hundred for the rock locks.

And IMHO, flinters are just more fun.

 

[Vaino]

Personally I prefer flintlocks and used to assemble them from parts because of the "lousy" workmanship on most. Today some quality FLs can be purchased, but there are still "duds" out there and if one of these is used, many many hours of tinkering and frustration will ensue. Presently I use only Chambers' flintlocks which stylelistically agree w/ the LRs I make and also eliminate a lot of "tuneup" hours. Couple of years ago I bought an L&R Classic flintlock and sent it back because of numerous, serious machining and assembly errors. Possibly this lock was an exception and their quality has improved, but I'll never find out. A percussion lock out of the box, will on average, function better and give less trouble than a flintlock because it's mechanics are simpler. Nevertheless, I enjoy shooting a flintlock much more than a perc...Fred

 

[Le Grand]

Wildpony, My tastes would tell me to go with the flintlock. And here's a point that hasn't been suggested. If you go with a flintlock Leman, using the L&R lock, you could convert it to percussion very easily if you weren't pleased with the flinter. Also, be sure to look at the kit for the Leman from Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading. A lot of the inletting is already done for you and that should be a big help. Le Grand

 

[Zonie]

"...I have pretty much decided that I am either going to build a Leman or Hawken kit to start out with...."
_____________________________________

Some of the others have given some very good reasons for getting Flint and others have given good reasons for getting a Percussion. These reasons seemed to be based on shooting and I can't argue with them.

I noticed that this will be your first gun and no one seemed to address the building aspects of the two systems, so I'll give my two farthings worth of knowledge.

The Flintlock system is by far the easiest one to build.
While the percussion system needs a very exact relationship between the locks hammer and the barrels nipple, the touch hole in the barrel of a Flintlock just has to be "close" and it will work well.
If I were to put this in numbers, the relationship between the hammer nose and the nipple should be within 1/32 of an inch of being exactly right. That is pretty close when we are dealing with two different parts (the lock and the barrel) both being in the right place.
IMO, if the Flintlock touch hole is within 3/32 of being in the right place, it may look odd, but it will still work correctly.

As for the Hawken VS the Leman, in Flint, there isn't a big difference, build wise. In Percussion, there is a difference and that difference is IMO, big.
The Leman usually used a "drum" system which is more difficult (as was mentioned) than the Flint, but is easier to deal with than the Snail hooked breech found on the Hawken.
The Percussion Hawkens were almost always Half-stocks which means you will have to deal with the barrel rib. While this isn't a big deal, it is just one more thing you will have to do that you wouldn't have to do with a fullstock.

IMO, the Leman was a moderatly light, easily handled rifle while the Hawken it usually quite heavy (10+ pounds).

Just a few more things to think about. :grin:
Zonie

 

[Wildpony]

Thanks for all the input fellas.

Im not too worried about being able to get things ligned up right. I do have a little experience with low tollerance mechanical projects from my past. Ofcourse this may be a totally different deal and that experience may not apply.

But you have all made very good arguments for the flintlock and I reckon I will probably go with that for the project.

I really like the lines of the Leman and think it will probably be the best choice. The only thing that worries me about it is the large amount of drop at the comb of the stock when compared to the Hawken patterns I have seen.

Tell me, In yall's expereince how does the Leman feel as far as cheek weld and balance when hefted as compared to a Hawken?

Anyone else think I should choose a .54 instead of a .58? I plan on using this rifle to both harvest game and compete in friendly matches and member shooting competitions on this forum. But, I also really like the way patched .58's smack my targets from my other rifle. Not having anything to compare it to though makes it hard to differentiate whether there is any appreciable advantage to using a .58 over a .54.

 

[gmww]

Not sure what you intend on doing with the gun but .54 will kill just about anything on the North American continent. Plus it seems to me anyways that you see a lot more .54 in stores for RB's and conicals than .58. Just a thought. :hatsoff:

 

[Erzulis boat]

All I know is[url] this...in[/url] my opinion, I would not try to "catch it all" in the first build.

I labored and sweated scheming and dreaming, mentally constructing a perfect "Jack of all trades" rifle. I wasted about 500 dollars.

Too large of a caliber, incorrectly shaped, and gaudy were the results.

Start with something maybe smaller like a .40 and get your feet wet.

My first "attempt" is still incomplete, and is now used for inletting practice. I ordered a 1" straight octagon in .54 and purchased a tiny a$$ "John Bailes" caplock, and installed it in a "Lancaster" style precarve from Dixie. You might be able to call it a "trade gun", but I still cannot find a fool big enough to trade me anything for it.

Keep asking and looking on the forum, but I would advise a simple forgiving rifle. The fanciest wood and the nicest carving will always lose to flawless mechanicals. The metalwork is the key to success.

I am a greenhorn too. :thumbsup: