For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

[wganz]

Well I've witnessed more failures in Indian made ML's than most would believe.

Do you by chance have pix of these failures and any history/details about them?

 

[FlinterNick]

Do you by chance have pix of these failures and any history/details about them?

I think it depends on what you’d call a failure.

There is only three or four documented instances of the guns actually blowing up, which is not significant.

Most of the failures I’ve seen are from the stocks breaking. I have seen in re-enactments 3-4 stocks break at the wrist and lock panel and at the butt where the wood screws are and have read about the stocks breaking online various times.

The stocks are the biggest issue with these muskets, the wood is just not appropriate for gunstocks, its a very brittle tight grained wood that doesn’t absorb stain or oil well at all.

I know loyalist arms contracted with indian manufactures that use Indian Rosewood and Mahogany, these are much more ideal woods for gunstocks, still not the greatest but much better than a teak gunstock.

 

[Steel Hayes]

For anyone wondering about the barrel metal from Military Heritage ,
https://www.theworldmaterial.com/bs970-080m40-en8-steel/
This is what is being used.

 

[FlinterNick]

For anyone wondering about the barrel metal from Military Heritage ,
https://www.theworldmaterial.com/bs970-080m40-en8-steel/
This is what is being used.

They use cold rolled DOM tubing. They call it seamless but it’s not they use a type of butt weld to close the seam. Then they temper the steel. The dealers that veteran arms uses and loyalist uses carbon steel tubing that is board out like a barrel blank much higher quality

 

[Steel Hayes]

The dealers that veteran arms uses and loyalist uses carbon steel tubing that is board out like a barrel blank much higher quality

Military Heritage list the exact type of metal your talking about on their website.
I sent them an email inquiry about the barrels being DOM tubing, as soon as I hear back I’ll be sure to post it.

 

[wganz]

I think it depends on what you’d call a failure.

There is only three or four documented instances of the guns actually blowing up, which is not significant.

Most of the failures I’ve seen are from the stocks breaking. I have seen in re-enactments 3-4 stocks break at the wrist and lock panel and at the butt where the wood screws are and have read about the stocks breaking online various times.

The stocks are the biggest issue with these muskets, the wood is just not appropriate for gunstocks, its a very brittle tight grained wood that doesn’t absorb stain or oil well at all.
<snip for brevity>

Thanks for that info. The anti-Indian gun faction implies that these pop like fire crackers on July 4th while the pro faction indicates they are right up with cockroaches & coyotes surviving a nuclear apocalypse.

Not trying to disparage re-enactors but from what was presented, the level of weapons care appears to generally suboptimal and their weapons are banged around more in these events than typical use. Can anyone address this one way or another?

 

[FlinterNick]

Military Heritage list the exact type of metal your talking about on their website.
I sent them an email inquiry about the barrels being DOM tubing, as soon as I hear back I’ll be sure to post it.

Its possible they changed.

For awhile their muskets were exactly the same as middlesex which uses DOM carbon steel tubing, had seen their M1717 and they were both the same.

Loyalist uses a solid steel barrel.

Personally I don’t like Military Heritage because I’ve never seen quality product out of their shop, I wouldn’t hesitate to buy from Loyalist, Ive seen their stuff in my regiment, and they’re pretty good.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Well I've witnessed more failures in Indian made ML's than most would believe.

Enlighten us with your 1st hand knowledge of these failures…

 

[Coinneach]

Enlighten us with your 1st hand knowledge of these failures…

How many hours do you have ?

What about a telephone conversation to make it easier ? BTW I'm in Australia.

 

[Coinneach]

Do you by chance have pix of these failures and any history/details about them?

No pics, I dont have a Camera or phone with me when I'm reenacting, or on the range, as for history its anecdotal from my own experience, I was there and more often than not trying to fix the problem; eg a Brown Bess lock that wouldnt hold at half cock; a lock with internal parts failing to be held together because of coarse threaded screws and ill matched tapped threads; a Frizzen that was so ill fitted it wobbled when the cock jawed Flint struck it (small brass Washers had to be hand sanded to size before the Frizzen could be shimmed up); a Breech plug that was angled up from the Barrel after firing a live proofing charge (of initially 80 gns 2fg BP) revealing hot gas leakage.... and a lot more.

But I'm not going to waste hours trying to convince anyone, feel free to go ahead and buy Indian made if thats your style, but consider this Indian made ML's arent manufactured by any one company, theyre village "crafted" from every direction; that is parts are made separately by many different individuals then assembled. Little to no quality control and no guarantees or warranty.

The Barrels arent drilled for Vents because theyre not proofed, (its not only about ease of importing) and not recommended for firing purposes. If individuals choose to proof them then go ahead, but as I mentioned earlier; here in Australia Indian made ML's arent considered acceptable on a live firing range, but are limited to Blank firing charges for reenactments.

Here in Australia we pay a premium for American and European ML's like Pedersoli and Frontier, plus the import penalties etc, why do you think that is ?

 

[Rudyard]

Well I've witnessed more failures in Indian made ML's than most would believe.

Failures of what? The numbers of them I ran through Birmingham Proof house yet Non failed. The Locks well there's another area But I put right plenty .If you have seen the workshops & tools the lock maker have to deal with you might be more charitable towards the poor sods who actually make locks ,What happens is they get nickle & dimed Or Rupee & Pice in their case down to the lowest price though they can make good stuff I know well from being in said grotty shops . Effectively You pay pea nuts you get monkeys . it's the middle men / merchant who push the roughest item the buyer will except .you must take issue with but there are many graveyards filled with they who tried to change India .viz

" Now it is not good for the Christian white To Hussle the Arian brown''. For the Christien Riles & the Arian Smiles & he whereth the Christion down.
"And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased And an epitaph Dear "A fool lies here who tried to hustle the East .''

The Real Rudyard

 

[Coinneach]

Failures of what? The numbers of them I ran through Birmingham Proof house yet Non failed. The Locks well there's another area But I put right plenty .If you have seen the workshops & tools the lock maker have to deal with you might be more charitable towards the poor sods who actually make locks ,What happens is they get nickle & dimed Or Rupee & Pice in their case down to the lowest price though they can make good stuff I know well from being in said grotty shops . Effectively You pay pea nuts you get monkeys . it's the middle men / merchant who push the roughest item the buyer will except .you must take issue with but there are many graveyards filled with they who tried to change India .viz

" Now it is not good for the Christian white To Hussle the Arian brown''. For the Christien Riles & the Arian Smiles & he whereth the Christion down.
"And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased And an epitaph Dear "A fool lies here who tried to hustle the East .''

The Real Rudyard

As above your post Rudyard, I've no problem with "the poor sods" who do what they can to make some kind of living, and obviously I lack the extensive experience you have with boots on their ground, never the less what I outlined in my last posting is what I've experienced here in the land of Aussie.

BTW I'm a Kipling follower too, my grandparents raised me and Kiplings works were the texts I first learned to read well before my school days began.

From Kiplings "The Naulahka"
"Now it is not good for the Christian's health to hustle the Aryan
brown,
For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the
Christian down;
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of
the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear: "A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the
East."

 

[Coinneach]

So what you’re saying is that they are not manufactured to be firearms…even though they are intended to be every bit of a functional firearm?

Hmm…Do you work for CNN?

Well if they were manufactured to be firearms why arent the Barrels vented and proofed BEFORE theyre exported from India ?

 

[FlinterNick]

In terms of failures this is the most common one that I see, The stock breaking. Somebody asked for photographs one was actually posted today online of a veteran arms Bess , I’ve seen this issue over a dozen times in the field. Teak gun stocks are not ideal It’s just cheap wood the same kind of cheap wood You find on products at HomeGoods or marshals. Not South American teak which is very expensive turning wood. Teak is very relative term for wood that is imported, there’s high quality teak which is a great looking wood for turning and then there’s teak that is used for decking boats etc. and then there’s the Indian Teak which is in high abundance, so its cheaper, this kind of teak you’ll find on outdoor furniture, cutting boards, decorations, its often mistaken for Asian Walnut which is also called Acacia. Teak is a very closed grained hard wood that is brittle and will crack under stress, its not a ‘tough’ wood like a walnut, maple or cherry or even a beech.

The only option to fix these are with an epoxy Dutchman repair, this is a bad one that will need a more radical approach with pins. There are no replacement stocks for these guns too, if you want a new stock you need to find a very talented gunsmith that can hand carve a blank, and now your affordable cheap indian gun is upward near $1200.00. On the positive side an indian musket restocked in walnut, might fetch you some value down the road (break even) but again an empty cost overall for most.

 

[FlinterNick]

Well if they were manufactured to be firearms why arent the Barrels vented and proofed BEFORE theyre exported from India ?

Indian Laws dont allow for it and it would increase the cost of the musket, the desire is to sell cheap muskets to compete with Pedersoli or the like.

 

[Coinneach]

Indian Laws dont allow for it and it would increase the cost of the musket, the desire is to sell cheap muskets to compete with Pedersoli or the like.

"Compete with Pedersoli or the like" LOL

 

[FlinterNick]

"Compete with Pedersoli or the like" LOL

For the folks who are not very deep into the muzzleloading hobby its very easy to move from complicated rifle shoppe kits to indian made muskets, it always appears to be a consumer issue.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

How many hours do you have ?

What about a telephone conversation to make it easier ? BTW I'm in Australia.

So you have nothing…

 

[Rock Home Isle]

No pics, I dont have a Camera or phone with me when I'm reenacting, or on the range, as for history its anecdotal from my own experience, I was there and more often than not trying to fix the problem; eg a Brown Bess lock that wouldnt hold at half cock; a lock with internal parts failing to be held together because of coarse threaded screws and ill matched tapped threads; a Frizzen that was so ill fitted it wobbled when the cock jawed Flint struck it (small brass Washers had to be hand sanded to size before the Frizzen could be shimmed up); a Breech plug that was angled up from the Barrel after firing a live proofing charge (of initially 80 gns 2fg BP) revealing hot gas leakage.... and a lot more.

But I'm not going to waste hours trying to convince anyone, feel free to go ahead and buy Indian made if thats your style, but consider this Indian made ML's arent manufactured by any one company, theyre village "crafted" from every direction; that is parts are made separately by many different individuals then assembled. Little to no quality control and no guarantees or warranty.

The Barrels arent drilled for Vents because theyre not proofed, (its not only about ease of importing) and not recommended for firing purposes. If individuals choose to proof them then go ahead, but as I mentioned earlier; here in Australia Indian made ML's arent considered acceptable on a live firing range, but are limited to Blank firing charges for reenactments.

Here in Australia we pay a premium for American and European ML's like Pedersoli and Frontier, plus the import penalties etc, why do you think that is ?

Anecdotal stories…no factual evidence…so again nothing…the internet can be so frustrating.

Why the intense hate against a fairly decent product? I’ll be the first to admit that India made guns are a work in progress. And there are only a couple of importers that have mostly solved the quality issues. These guns usually need some attention after purchase.

I’ve seen these products come a long ways from where they were 20 years ago, yeah pretty bad…but I would consider myself to be ignorant, uninformed, and biased, to make such a statement today.

I don’t understand these guys, with their hate, that spout doom & gloom, make these horrible claims about how bad these India made products clearly are…and then resort to personal insults, and unfounded statements when asked for verification and evidence.

Could it be that a lot of the low quality products are being funneled into Aussie Land?
Could it be Emotional Damage….??

The cause of the intensity of emotions, concerning these inanimate objects eludes me….

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Hi,
The important part of that report is the admonition to reenators to clean the firearms, particularly since no projectile or patch is used that scours the fowling during use. I work over reenactor guns frequently and the level of care is appalling. To some, the gun is a prop and nothing more. I was at the Battle of Bennington this year and saw musket stocks almost gray with weather damage because the finish was gone, locks and barrels corroded to the point the markings were illegible. Locks with frizzens so loose and feather springs so wimpy they fired only once in 5 or 6 tries. In the 18th century, those soldiers would have been flogged and their officers fined or demoted. I've encountered that solid gray stuff that was found in the exploded barrel and it may be due to using water to clean (which is fine) but doing the job poorly and incompletely such that residue is left in the barrel and it accretes because of the water. I've chipped that crap out of barrels and every one of those barrels was from a gun in which the owner never removed the barrel for cleaning. Many, perhaps most, reenactor don't seem to know much technically about their firelocks. After I work over their locks, they are amazed at how well they work. All I've done is bring the locks up to the standards they originally were and the reenactors are amazed because they never shot flintlocks in that condition before. They have no idea how well they should be working.

dave

AMEN.
I'm a group's "armorer", and I'm the guy that routinely is dropping a scope down the barrels to look for pitting, and replacing worn parts, or refinishing a stock. I work mostly on personally owned muskets, Miroku and Pedersoli, but I do see the occasional Loyalist Arms or MVTC Bess, and they repay me for the parts that are applied, or the chemicals/dye/finish that I use when redoing their stocks. The India origin ones don't normally need parts, and if they do, I can't do that "in the field" as they need custom fitting.

We have found that having the lads clean right after returning from the field, as a group activity, and my having a stock of basic parts on hand (Plus a shop magnet for the privates that just can't help but loose screws in the grass where they are sitting when cleaning ) allows us to promptly maintain the guns, and thus stuff doesn't get neglected...., as time is not your friend when a musket needs "attention".

LD