For anyone considering an Indian manufactured Flintlock

[Jimi The Weed]

Well if they were manufactured to be firearms why arent the Barrels vented and proofed BEFORE theyre exported from India ?

Because they can't export a working firearm.
I have an Indian made Brown Bess and after a lil drill job, it shoots great.

 

[THE_LAST_WORD]

Enlighten us with your 1st hand knowledge of these failures…

yup eventually ya find something you recognize... smiles you have to be specific when buying anything from india. i get chain mahl armor, they make the garbage aluminum chain for cos play, and they also make the battle hardened iron chain mahl that is pretty good. so just make sure what you are gettingis real and not for costume play, cause your reinactments are essentially real and need the item to work properly.
thank you for listening to my point of view

 

[FlinterNick]

"Compete with Pedersoli or the like" LOL

"Anecdotal stories...no factual evidence" What part of eyewitness account dont you understand ?

"Why the intense hate against a fairly decent product?" Why the accusation ? Theres no"intense hate" in anything I wrote on this thread, or "personal insults" whats your next move declaring me a Racist ?

I wont bother addressing your other slights and sarcasm, best to ignore you from here on.

My first hand experience in the field and at my bench.

I’ve seen at least a dozen indian made stocks break in the field, from major to minor issues with the worst being a crack from the forward lock bolt down to the triggerguard. The issue was the bolt was too tight and the rammer engaged the bolt creating pressure. Most of the stocks that have broken were from Veteran Arms and Middlesex.

One barrel i looked over i did recommend to not shoot anymore. The owner came to me with a concern that the rammer head was catching something at the breach when cleaning. The breech plug was about three threads too short, patch was catching on the exposed threads. Fouling can build up in those threads and sometimes cause a ‘fuse’ like effect when loading, serious burns to the hand. Sent the barrel to Bobby Hoyt he welded additional steel to the breech plug.

I’ve worked on many locks from Veteran Arms and Middlesex. The internals on all of the locks needed a serious deburring and hardening. The locks are often have file marks that are polished over, causing parts to grind and leave whiteness marks. The problem with indian locks is the steel type used is not known, when i called the distributors they always said carbon steel. All parts i did a simple surface hardening including the frizzen The geometry of the locks is a different story, i often found the sear to be too big for the tumblers sear springs are placed too low.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

Well if they were manufactured to be firearms why arent the Barrels vented and proofed BEFORE theyre exported from India ?

To avoid the many laws in India and elsewhere. No vent, not considered a firearm.

 

[Fitzhugh Williams]

When I made the decision to move from doing French milice to Compagnies franches de la Marine, I looked for a proper 1728 fusil. There were vendors who came to events selling the India-made guns, and the only other place to get one was the Rifle Shoppe. So I went to Crown Point with money in hand to buy one, but when I finally got there only one was left. It was just not made well enough to suit me. Probably why it was left. So I ordered a Rifle Shoppe fusil and assembled it over the winter. Next summer at Ticonderoga the same vendor was there and had 6 model 1728s for sale. One was good, and if I had seen it the year before, I would have bought it. Two were acceptable and there were three which I would not have bought. The way to buy and India-made gun is to pick one from a group which a vendor has in stock. They are of widely varying quality. If you can’t do that, then it’s like playing the lottery.

A friend in Canada made detailed instructions on how to de-farb a 1728. His looks great. But all things considered, I am very glad I went with the Rifle Shoppe gun. It used a Colerain barrel that was closer to the proper dimensions than anything else on the market. But it was still not correct. I had a conversation with the folks at Colerain and they offered to make me one which was correct but since the fusil was already finished, and the difference was minor, I decided to let well enough alone. And during the main battle at Ticonderoga, the Rifle Shoppe gun fired 33 times in a rain storm with no misfires. I was happy.

 

[FlinterNick]

When I made the decision to move from doing French milice to Compagnies franches de la Marine, I looked for a proper 1728 fusil. There were vendors who came to events selling the India-made guns, and the only other place to get one was the Rifle Shoppe. So I went to Crown Point with money in hand to buy one, but when I finally got there only one was left. It was just not made well enough to suit me. Probably why it was left. So I ordered a Rifle Shoppe fusil and assembled it over the winter. Next summer at Ticonderoga the same vendor was there and had 6 model 1728s for sale. One was good, and if I had seen it the year before, I would have bought it. Two were acceptable and there were three which I would not have bought. The way to buy and India-made gun is to pick one from a group which a vendor has in stock. They are of widely varying quality. If you can’t do that, then it’s like playing the lottery.

A friend in Canada made detailed instructions on how to de-farb a 1728. His looks great. But all things considered, I am very glad I went with the Rifle Shoppe gun. It used a Colerain barrel that was closer to the proper dimensions than anything else on the market. But it was still not correct. I had a conversation with the folks at Colerain and they offered to make me one which was correct but since the fusil was already finished, and the difference was minor, I decided to let well enough alone. And during the main battle at Ticonderoga, the Rifle Shoppe gun fired 33 times in a rain storm with no misfires. I was happy.

I was in the same situation 8 months ago. I had the opportunity to look at a 1728 from loyalist arms, military heritage and at the Baltimore gun show.

Not what i expected at all, the gun’s weight is over 10lbs, when its actual weight should be closer to 8 lbs. In-fact, I was told by a great source that the indian made 1728 is actually closer to the M1728 french ammusette (wall gun) which was not really rampart gun but more like an oversized french musket.

I ordered a 1754 kit from the rifle shoppe.

 

[Hussar64]

I have a 1748 "Brown Bess" from Veteran Arms. I've run 100 and 120 ffg paper cartridges through it. So, that amount of powder minus the priming charge.

It's what I expect from an issue 18th century English military musket.

My bugaboo about it is the wood used in the stock, and that's due to a mental illness related to historical accuracy.

Cheers,
Tim

 

[Big Bear Joe]

For anyone wondering about the barrel metal from Military Heritage ,
https://www.theworldmaterial.com/bs970-080m40-en8-steel/
This is what is being used.

EN8 - BS960 080M40 actually seems like a pretty good steel for gun barrels. Heat treated it has a tensile strength in excess of 101,526 psi which compares pretty darn well with 4150 carbon steel commonly used for higher quality gun barrels which has a tensile strength of 100,000 to 110,000 psi. EN8 is a trad stronger than the 4140 stainless steel commonly used for quality gun barrels which has a tensile strength of around 95,000.

Putting it sort of into perspective relative to the steel commonly used top build race car roll bars, 4130 chromoly has a tensile strength of 97,200 ps1i.

So in my estimation there is nothing wrong with EN8 steel barrels for muzzleloaders. It is very similar to other low-carbon steels used for quality barrels made in Spain and Italy which are the most common muzzleloaders we shoot these days.

​

 

[Ballshooter]

I was in the market for a smoothbore and was about to order one but then came to my senses and got a kibler Colonial longrifle smoothbore. By the time you pay shipping and wait because they are behind I know because I contacted Loyalist Arms and the price was $785 and a two to three month wait. Ummm no thanks I'll order a kibler and get a quality product for only $1180. The imports are probably ok metal wise and is safe to shoot but the wood on those are down right awful crude workmanship.

 

[dave_person]

"It's what I expect from an issue 18th century English military musket."

Not even close. They would never have passed ordnance inspection.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

"It's what I expect from an issue 18th century English military musket."

Not even close. They would never have passed ordnance inspection.

dave

Dave is 100% correct. Pedersoli and Indian made arms wouldn’t pass inspection, not sure about custom guns. Pedersoli because of the barrels probably the stock, and Indian Guns because of everything.

 

[Rudyard]

Thanks Rudyard .Only trying to forward what I believe.. Shot with Denis, Frank et.al. at Epperstone with Notts Soc of Riflemen (1813) for some years. Frank could always generated some Heat in THE MAGAZINE, especially with his "BUM SHOTS"!! One day the late John H. brought along an orig.. Nock's Volley Gun togethr with the Mock-up used in the Sharps Films. Certainly the mock-up looked little like the Orig.. with its back action lock and barrels that were made from plain straight tubes cobbled together. The Hood's range is so rural and going back to 500yds. in it's hedge lined field. Miss it but the then Nottingham Road "Improvements" made the 11/2--2 hour trip a drag as I had the 5 Dogs to see too before I went for the 9.00a.m.start..Stay Well.. OLD DOG..

Dear Old Dog Franks' Magazine 'was great I wrote heaps for him & it He had the Uni & him not being PC they ignored him so he could turn out a great mag The year we formed a Sheffield Branch 1961 I think, I went down to see Dennis on Trent Range I was supprised he wasnt shooting MLs. But his sage advise was "Find a good mug & make him secratery "Then he gave me a 303 Ide never had one so I carefully open the bolt bit . He Says" No not like that, like this" ' SLAM Slam' done' & I've done it that way ever since . Ide bought a "Hawkeye gun" from a farm boy couple of years earlier for 8 quid I so green I thought the rusted on snap cap was fixed Stil got it took it to Bisley & Ted Burton gave me a better nipple . That cobbled volley gun I added the engraveing for Richard Moore when he was doing the Sharpes series . I made a better second pattern but it went to the US no idea where it went after . It went off OK . I had 7 303 brls turned uniform ex culls of Greenwood& Batley I think to do a goose rifle but not done it. getting creaky of late , be fun I should knock it up . Anyway thanks for your kind support , Ive done so much different stuff even I am awed buy my own" legend in my own lunch box "as Richard put it . Regards Me /Rudyard ''

PS the' Hawkey gun'was a Volunteer three band Enfield

 

[tenngun]

Indian ML's arent Barrel proofed, but are exported without vent holes drilled, what does that tell you ?

Here in Australia we dont accept Indian made ML's on firing ranges unless they've been Barrel proofed by the SSAA or other creditable Shooting associations, in addition to the internal Lock parts passing inspection.

Every green mountain , and old sharron and green river, along with rice barrel I’ve ever bought was not proofed or had touch hole drilled.
I signed up last night for a couple of extra shifts as there is a Loyalist gun in my future

 

[tenngun]

Well if they were manufactured to be firearms why arent the Barrels vented and proofed BEFORE theyre exported from India ?

Legal reasons, India can’t have the arms many countries importing stops it’s citizens from practicing their basic human rights.
During prohibition some beer companies sold in brewed beer and bags of yeast.
What you got was non alcoholic barley soup. At home you got beer.

 

[FlinterNick]

Every green mountain , and old sharron and green river, along with rice barrel I’ve ever bought was not proofed or had touch hole drilled.
I signed up last night for a couple of extra shifts as there is a Loyalist gun in my future

Loyalist is a good purchase, I’d just try to make sure you ask them to take pictures of the stock (of the gun they intended to ship) wrist, butt, lock area breech and forearm.

 

[Surfinator58]

Hi,
The important part of that report is the admonition to reenators to clean the firearms, particularly since no projectile or patch is used that scours the fowling during use. I work over reenactor guns frequently and the level of care is appalling. To some, the gun is a prop and nothing more. I was at the Battle of Bennington this year and saw musket stocks almost gray with weather damage because the finish was gone, locks and barrels corroded to the point the markings were illegible. Locks with frizzens so loose and feather springs so wimpy they fired only once in 5 or 6 tries. In the 18th century, those soldiers would have been flogged and their officers fined or demoted. I've encountered that solid gray stuff that was found in the exploded barrel and it may be due to using water to clean (which is fine) but doing the job poorly and incompletely such that residue is left in the barrel and it accretes because of the water. I've chipped that manure out of barrels and every one of those barrels was from a gun in which the owner never removed the barrel for cleaning. Many, perhaps most, reenactor don't seem to know much technically about their firelocks. After I work over their locks, they are amazed at how well they work. All I've done is bring the locks up to the standards they originally were and the reenactors are amazed because they never shot flintlocks in that condition before. They have no idea how well they should be working.

dave

I think you're right that part of the takeaway of this is maintenance but not the most important the most important as far as this forum is concerned is the fact that the metal in the manufacturing process of the India made guns is every bit as good as many of the commercially available products

 

[Surfinator58]

I recently saw a YouTube video in which an individual purchased a famous maker Flintlock Kibler Seiler Eleanor anyway it was from track of the Wolf completed guns he goes to the entire gun and shows all the poorly done fitting and finishing throughout the gun that made it worth in his estimation about half what he paid and of course This lends itself to the possibility of failure when barrels aren't seated properly in their stock I would say in this particular case an Indian maid Flintlock is better because it has to be gone through and finished

 

[Trot]

I recently saw a YouTube video in which an individual purchased a famous maker Flintlock Kibler Seiler Eleanor anyway it was from track of the Wolf completed guns he goes to the entire gun and shows all the poorly done fitting and finishing throughout the gun that made it worth in his estimation about half what he paid and of course This lends itself to the possibility of failure when barrels aren't seated properly in their stock I would say in this particular case an Indian maid Flintlock is better because it has to be gone through and finished

Could you be a little more specific on this video? I'd like to check it out.

 

[Surfinator58]

Could you be a little more specific on this video? I'd like to check it out.

My bad not track of the Wolf it was sitting Fox 36 caliber custom Flintlock although it could happen anywhere he explains he paid more than enough money to have the gun come to him in a well-tuned condition which it was not

 

[Trot]

My bad not track of the Wolf it was sitting Fox 36 caliber custom Flintlock although it could happen anywhere he explains he paid more than enough money to have the gun come to him in a well-tuned condition which it was not

Ah, OK, I have heard similar stories about some of the builders Sitting Fox uses.