Future of the sport...?

[The Kansan]

Been following this thread with considerable interest for the past few days. I have to admit that, at first, I didn't see how something as innocent as a query on the future of our sport (i.e. lack of youth involvement) could have dengenerated into yet another Traditional vs. Inline squabble... At first... Then I remembered somthing that happened to me a few years back:

While visiting my brother in Hutchinson, Ks., he introduced me to a buddy of his saying, "You guys oughtta' have plenty to talk about bein' as how you're both into muzzleoading." Well needless to say, this immediately piqued my interest and I asked the feller how long he'd been burning charcoal (Just a few years) and what kind of rifle he shot. (A brand new Knight with a squadrillion power scope and disc brakes or some darn thing!) I said, "Oh..." and kinda' lost interest in the conversation. Well, this feller keeps going on and on (plain to see he's really excited about shootin' a front stuffer) and before long, he's giving me the general impression that he thinks he's Davy Crockett, Dan'l Boone and Jim Bridger all rolled into one. ...Then he asked me what I shot...

I told him two of my favorites were out in the truck and if he'd wait in the house, I'd go fetch 'em. Then I ducked into the garage, threw my on my 'skins', grabbed my shootin' bag 'n' powder horn and walked in carrying my original dbl. bbl. 12 ga. (1832) and a .36 cal. Flintlock squirrel gun (which actually belongs to a friend). He just looked at me and said - "Wow! I guess this makes my sh!t kinda' weak, don't it?" I told him not to worry about it, as we all have to start somewhere. and "You wanna' go do some shootin'?"

Well, to make a short story long, he no longer owns that fancy Knight with the disc brakes. He's got a good, reliable traditional (percussion) charcoal burner and shoots Goex now, instead of Pyrodex. He's not into braintanning or bead work and wouldn't know a good pair of moccasins if they kicked him in the arse. (Though, with my teaching and encouragement, he tosses a pretty mean Tomahawk!) And... (this is the best part!) he's introduced his kids to the joys of black powder and white smoke.

Folks, I was a 4-H muzzleloading instructor for 4 years before I moved to Lincoln county and I've done (and still do!) a better than fair amount of living history/Historical presentations - Everything from the fur trade era right up to the Battle of Beecher's Island in 1868. I talk to a lot of adults and kids of all ages. And something I nearly ALWAYS mention is that if they're interested in what I'm doing, there is absolutely NO REASON why they can't join in on the fun - You don't have to spend a jillion bucks or devote 2/3rds of your life to doing research - Just give me a holler and I'll help out in any way I can. If I'm not available, I'll put 'em in touch with someone who is!

I've done the research, talked the talk, walked the walk and slept under the stars more than most have slept in their own beds! - Darn right, I'm an eliteist! ...I just ain't stuck up about it... Here's my hand; Take it and shake it and I'll use it to point you in the right direction...

Ok, my rant is more or less over now - I've seen some super good points made in this thread, so let's all go out and put 'em to practical use.


BTW, Paul - Really, really nice to meet you at convention and I enjoyed the heck out of your seminar! (guess I didn't know as much as I thought I did about self bows!)

...It ain't about Red history, White history or Black history - It's about AMERICAN history! (And without our history, we'd have no future!)

...The Kansan...

 

[BLAHMAN]

Porkchop revealed a very interesting item in one of his posts......the lack of funds and the want to get involved in BP shooting cheaply. I am not saying he is a cheap guy, he admits lack of funds.

I do a lot of talking with the guys at Log Cabin and here are the facts concerning inline BP guns: They are made entirely for profit. They are CHEAP to make and they are cheap to sell.

Not only that, but they have been simplified: "Just drop in 3 'pellets', the bullet, put the nipple on and your set to go!" I get a real thrill when I watch these guys at the range...they are shooting very hot loads, getting the manure kicked out of their shoulder, flinching, not hitting what they are shooting at and having a miserable time. They are probably wondering "What they hell is so great about this?"

I show up at the range with a flintlock and one that I made. As soon as I get myself settled down and start loading up I hear the cat calls and the wispers..."Look at that guy, needs to get a real gun!"...."Whered' he get that, the Mayflower?", on and on...I'm sure you guys have heard it.

Well, the BS stops as soon as I shoot, then I shoot again, and again...they see the groups and then ask me "Hey, how many pellets are you puttin' in there?" or something else. Then I start to have my fun.

I simply ask if anybody would like to take a shot with my gun...I ussually gey a couple...then I tell them I made it...they can't believe that. Then I start to educate them without them knowing it.

Hopefully, I may have converted a few, maybe not, but I know that I have interested a whole bunch of shooters.

I almost feel sorry for the guys who shoot those things and read those "slick magazines" telling them what they must do to succeed. Do you know, they will never feel the thrill of "working" up a load to a particular rifle, putting that rifles through it's paces and discovering that rifle's nuances through shooting it. They have not the faintest idea of the subtletes of this sport.

The modern inline, in my opinion, has done very little to enhance our sport...it has simply "dumbed" down those who want to enter our sport.

And those cheap (but affordable) inlines? They will start breaking down and then a new can of worms will be opened.

But what the heck, Porkchop, I bet that you too will start to make a journey, like we all have. You'll get tired of that "generic" Bobcat CVA. Put one on the rack with a bunch of others and they all look the same. I hope that someday you'll think to yourself..."Wonder what a flintlock feels like to shoot?", or "Wonder how hard it is to make one", or something else that may spark an interest to start that evolution, after all, you pay attention to this forum, don't you?

You're hooked...it's just a matter of time.

Hey! I found that missing soap box!

 

Pork Chop,.... I'll address yore latest PM to me here, rather than thru anuther PM.

I haven't seen "pictures" of a re-stocked CVA Bobcat on any of these forums either.
The "tread" I was refer'n to, was wher I mentioned re-stock'n a couple'a Bobcats for my grandsons (if I could find a couple'a Bobcats). The only reason I'd go fullstock on thet short of a rifle, is so them young'uns could have a riflegun thet looked jest like "grampa's" (least in "ther" eyes :haha.

Once thet chunk of cherry gits to you, and you git'er re-stocked, I hope you will post some pictures of the results so thet others can see what "she" looks like.
As with most things, I must'a been "a day late, and a dollar short", 'cause CVA no longer makes the Bobcat, so I may have to settle for a couple'a "used ones" (if I can find'em) to re-stock for the grandkids.

This also brings up anuther option for you, be'ns CVA no longer offers the Bobcat, you may find yore's rather easy to sell in order to "up-grade" to a more traditional muzzleloader.

If you re-stock yore's, and post some pictures, ther's probly some folks on this site thet would start "make'n some chips fly" on a new stock for ther Bobcats.

Good luck with yore project!!
YMHS
rollingb

 

To be honest, I have nothing against any rifle as long as it works when needed. But personally I am anxiously awaiting the TMA (Traditional Muzzleloaders Association). If there is anything I can do help that organization come to fruition I am willing!!!

Hota,.... You shouldn't have much longer to wait for the TMA. Everthin is go'n along smoothly at this point. Ther's some real dedicated fellas work'n to put the TMA together while consider'n all options.

Thanks for yore offer to help the "new" organization come to "fruitation", it's fellas like you thet will make this endeavor a success!!

Very best regards!!
YMHS
rollingb

 

[Tahquamenon]

After reading all posts of this thread to date, I'd say that I am either the only or one of the very few inline owners and shooters that posted to this thread.
Some folks have had inlines in the past, but that seems to be the exception versus the rule.

Since I consider myself a true minority here in this thread as well as in this forum, please ponder this as related to the original question ("The future of the sport"):

I've come to the conclusion that the further definition of "sport" as relates to this thread is "traditional".

Frankly, I would not mix and associate the two definitions (traditional and elite). I've never placed so much emphasis on myself to consider myself "Elite" nor have I ever placed much stock in those that wish to remind me just how "Elite" they are. I've always have just done and try to do the best I can, same thing I teach my family.

Certainly true dedication to any craft, activity or sport deserves respect and recognition, but does not demand or command these endowments. One reaches an "elite" or elevated status as defined by those around them or their peers in a given community.

I would suggest that if the folks that are concerned about the future of "Traditional ML" sport, then perhaps just being traditional, or elite" is not sufficient on it's own to inspire folks and newcomers.

More and more gunshops are not stocking sidelock percussions and flintlock rifles along with supplies and accessories. Which is a true shame. Why? Basic economics. They are not selling as compared to inline rifles and shop owners are in business to make a living. This means that folks have less of an opportunity to gain exposure to traditionally styled weapons. Less and less everyday. So what is the answer?

If the traditional ML'er wishes to "inspire" more focus and support than really, reaching out is what is required. I am not really seeing all that much reaching out. I see more often cliques and either you clique or you don't. This will not alone inspire folks to participate.

More folks need to the opportunity to try a sidelock percussion or flint. Just how are they supposed to get this exposure?
If folks don't get the opportunity, then they will never find themselves "inspired" to carry things further to practice more "traditional" aspects.

I introduce first timers and greener folks to the shooting sports all the time. Every chance I get. Muzzleloader inlines, sidelocks, synthetic & black powder along with center & rim fire rifles and pistols. I love it all and never focus on a disadvange or advantage of one type or another as they all have their own merit.

From an exposure to "traditional" perspectives, the Re-introduction of the inline muzzleloader could likely be the best thing since the toaster as far as getting folks more involved in the muzzleloading shooting sports and perhaps even "traditional" muzzleloading.

"Traditional" numbers are diminishing. They don't have to though. Perhaps much of the non-traditional shooting public just feels as isolated as the traditional public feels encroached upon.

Thanks for listening and take your best shot if you feel the need.

Being able to participate in this and other forums has inpired me further to continue to show as many folks as I can the shooting sports and in particular, muzzleloading.

By and large, I'd say you are all a really great bunch!

Respectfully,

Tahquamenon

 

Tahquamenon,.... While I agree with most of yore post, the main reason (I think) for the "decline" in traditional muzzleloaders is based solely on advertisement . Americans have this "great urge" to hunt with anythin "labled" (true, false, or, otherwise) as a "magnum" . Yet these same fellas soon learn thet ther "magnum" muzzleloader is often more accurate with a "non-magnum" powder charge.

The old say'n "advertisement sells" is (unfortunately) very true, and combine this with good ol' American "magnumitous" and we have witnessed a huge market for modern inlines.

The only way to "combat" such advertisement, is to "fight fire, with fire", and put out the "word" in favour of traditional muzzleloaders. If we can do this thru a national organization, we may very well see a "turn in the current trend"!!

Now for anybuddy thet shoots "inlines" and loves'em,.... I'm not insinuate'n thet traditionalists think "modern inlines" shouldn't be available to anyone thet wants'em.
Heck,.. most companies make "both types" anyway!!

I do think however, thet the "truth" about traditional muzzleloaders and ther traditional "components" should be made more visible, and seen more often, in written articles and TV "saturday-afternoon hunt'n shows".

For the last decade or two, advertisements in regards to "traditional sidelock muzzleloaders", have been dismal in numbers to say the least!!

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Ohio Joe]

I think this whole thread has moved off into some other direction.

Folks, if you want to learn more about traditional muzzleloading, then I am willing to help you out as I'm sure many here are willing to help too.

If you want to learn more about the modern muzzleloaders such as the, scoped inlines, the ammo they fire, the modern rifle primers they use,,, I can't help you.

If being a traditionalist makes me an elitist, so be it. I do not, and can not force my beliefs on anyone, but I can help those who truly have the desire to learn the traditional ways and ask for that help...

All the rest is up to the individual on how much they want to continue to learn and hone skills... There's no bottom or top mark to live up to... eace:

 

[wil]

Hello to all you fellers,
I have just read all the threads on this subject, " future of the sport'. And I've got to say that I'm sadden by the jest of the whole disscusion. Frist let me say to both the modern and the traditional shooters out there, " If we do not hang together, we will surely hang seperately." Those words never rang more true than right now, and I don't care if your a modern or traditional shooter. There are forces out there that can't wait to outlaw our guns. They live for the day that the 2nd amendment is droped from the constutution. And the last thing that we need to do is hurry it along with our bickering.
Secoundly, who cares if inliners are in the NMLRA? They, as free Americans, have as much a right to join or not, any organazation they please. And I honestly don't know why any of the traditionals would care anyway. The NMLRA turned there back on you along time ago; I know that there has been some fence building with the formation of the NRLHF, but they still have aways to go.
And last but not least, I'm a traditional myself. And have I, at times looked down at other folks because they don't subscribe to my vision of how I think what direction this hobby should go? YOU BET I HAVE !!!!! And anyone who says otherwise is just lying to themselves. The only way to continue the future of the traditional end of this sport, lifestyle,reenactment, is to be open to anyone that comes up to you and starts asking qustions. And that means kids, inliners, and spectators. They will never know the differance if someone doesn't show them.
Enough said,
Wil

" History perserved, through knowledge shared"

 

[Pork Chop]

Kansan,

Great story! I don't see you as an elitist as an elitist would have just let the subject die and left it at that. You took the time to share your love of the more traditional and converted someone that thought he was shooting the "old way" all along. My hat is off to you for that. I don't think that an elitist would do such a thing as an elitist in my opinion would see that person as beneath them. Your background shows you more as a teacher and that was your role there too.

On the subject of cheap - my take from listening to guys hunting is that the inlines are a cheap in to extend the season. Most of the centerfire guys don't really want a muzzleloader, so the inline meets the letter of the law (in most states) with the minimum outlay. If they are interested in muzzleloaders for other than a season extender, that can be a gateway to more traditional weapons.

On the subject of ME being cheap, well I am on a severely restricted budget because of a new business startup. I started my own business just a year ago, and while I am making a little money, it ain't much. Therefore the minister of finance has a tight grip on expenses. The attraction of the Bobcat was that I saw it as a learning tool. I have an Investarms Hawken and a pile of pistols (two derringers, a kentucky, a colonial, a double barrel caplock, a Remington replica, a Colt replica, a Gunnerson and Griswold replica and an original pinfire - I think that I listed them all...) so I have toys to play with - but I saw the Bobcat as a pile of parts begging for a stock to be made for it. If you check the threads about restocking a Bobcat, you will see that I have posted there. I hope to get the piece of cherry by the end of the week that will (hopefully) become the stock of the Bobcat. Once that learning session is complete, I would like to build a custom longrifle. So, yes, I am cheap due to circumstance right now, but I have a vision of something more. I don't see me wearing buckskins (my lard A$$ would not look good in them) any time soon, but I have nothing against that.

Oh yeah, I have an original flintlock that I have yet to identify. One day I will get a picture and post it somewhere...

 

Wil,.... I don't know of a single "traditionalist" thet would turn away any question a "inline shooter" might possibly ask.

I'm begin'n to see thet some folks regard traditionalists as a "type" of person thet refuses to help an inliner make the "transition" from inlines to traditional muzzleloaders,.... and this is surely NOT the case by any means!

So, "cheer up",... the "picture" is not as gloomy as some imagine!! :thumbsup:

YMHS
rollingb

 

[The Kansan]

Pork chop,

Thank you for the kind words, but I have to admit that my reasons for doing what I did were not at all philanthropic - I just had to personally show this "dude" that if yer gonna' talk the talk then it's better to know what the heck yer talking about. (and what better way than having walked the walk?) I'm happy with the way things turned out, but it could've been entirely different. All things considered, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. And I was wantin' to burn some powder that day anyway! :winking:

...T.K....

 

[PaulN/KS]

Well,I get "Amish" over my weekend and this thread sorta growed...since it has morphed into a Trad-vs-Inline I am glad some of you are keeping it on the original message.
To "review", the future of our sport will depend upon the influx of new people interested in the shooting and rondy activities.Let's all try to be more inclusive than "exclusive"....

 

Well,I get "Amish" over my weekend and this thread sorta growed...since it has morphed into a Trad-vs-Inline I am glad some of you are keeping it on the original message.
To "review", the future of our sport will depend upon the influx of new people interested in the shooting and rondy activities.Let's all try to be more inclusive than "exclusive"....

.... are you say'n thet modern inlines should be invited into "rendezvous"????? ::

All the accusations and insinuations, thet traditionalists are be'n "exclusive", and thet traditionalists are tread'n on the "rights" of inliners, and thet this thread has "morphed" into a Trad-vs-Inline arguement, and thet traditionalist are "turn'n away" new people interested in muzzleloaders, and etc.,.... are pure "poppycock"!!

All "sports" have rules!! ..... and as far as keep'n this thread "on topic", well,.... I think "she's sit'n plum center"!!!

...... below is the "original post" to this thread, and I don't see anythin in it thet would suggest inline's are have'n a "popularity problem" .

"While at the KMA convention this year it really struck me how few younger folks are coming into the Traditional muzzleloading/buckskinning sport.Shoot,I'm 50 and felt like a kid there.Both clubs that I belong to try to have youth events and such but it appears to me that the younger folks just are'nt coming into the sport.It would be nice to see more younger families joining us.Any thoughts folks...?"

YMHS
rollingb

 

[PaulN/KS]

Ease up there rollingb,I remember what the original post said.(I ain't THAT old,yet)
No,I am not saying we should allow inlines to the rendezvous.I was'nt even thinking about them when I started this thread.By inclusive I meant bringing folks into our circle instead of keeping them back at the edge of the fire.Events that bring us more good public exposure are what I think we need to show folks that this is good Family fun.

Sorry I got yer buckskins in a bunch...

 

Ease up there rollingb,I remember what the original post said.(I ain't THAT old,yet)
No,I am not saying we should allow inlines to the rendezvous.I was'nt even thinking about them when I started this thread.By inclusive I meant bringing folks into our circle instead of keeping them back at the edge of the fire.Events that bring us more good public exposure are what I think we need to show folks that this is good Family fun.

Sorry I got yer buckskins in a bunch...

No problem Paul,.... :thumbsup:

My post was a deliberate attempt to show how "some" folks can "jump to conclusions" on a thread such as this!! :haha:

I am in full agreement thet we need to bring folks "closer to the fire" ,.... but on the "other hand", I don't know a single traditionalist thet is tell'n them same folks to "stay back" !!

I hope I've finally made my "position", in regards to this topic (and, inlines), clear to everone!!

YMHS
rollingb

 

[PaulN/KS]

Whew,ya had me goin there for a sec rollingb.And I whould say that your sigline pretty well sums up your feelings about the Inlinefidels ::
I don't see any of us telling folks to "stay back" either.We are a fun bunch of good folks and I just want to see more fun good folks join us.Best regards,Paul

 

[wil]

Hey rollinb,
I'm not that gloomy, and I'm also not the one who called himself an "elitest". I'll put my flintrock up to any inline on the planet. And I'll also compare any of my period gear to anyones out there also. But am I an "elitest" ? Hell no! I'm alot like the Kansan, just a man out to shoot BP,reenact, answer any questions I can about my portrayal,and have as much fun as I can. I just don't see the point in agueing about the inlines. We should be more concerned about getting more folks involved, young, old, or inlinedycaped :crackup:
And to the Kansan; I surely hope that I get to have the privlage of shakeing your hand some day.
Don't hate me because I can't spell :haha:
Wil


"History preserved, through knowledge shared"

 

Wil,.... When I asked you to "cheer up", it was because of this statement,.... " And I've got to say that I'm sadden by the jest of the whole disscusion.",.....

Actualy I'm a "bit saddened" also,.... some folks have kind'a twisted the word "elitist" to mean sumpthin bad , rather than,.... "A sense of being a part of an elite"!

Tho a man may have a sense of belong'n to an "elite" group,.... doesn't nessecarily mean he's changed his attitude in how he regards, or treats, his fellow man!

Over my lifetime, I've met a few real "elite" people, and I can honestly say,.... "they all treated me well",.... even tho I was not "part" of ther "group"!!

Had I have wanted to be part of ther "group", I'm sure some of those "elitests" would have give'n me a willful hand!!

I have no idea why some folks try to make "elitest" a dirty word,.... maybe it's because they have no logical arguement to rely on when debate'n such people!!

......... also some folks are "elitests" wether they know it or not!! (and, may they be forever "blessed") :thumbsup: :applause:

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Ohio Joe]

Well said, Rollingb... :applause: :thumbsup:

 

the definition of the word elitist from the dictionary

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