Hammer and Nipple Not lined Up

[Zonie]

It looks like there are no flats to apply the wrench too.

There doesn't need to be any flats to apply the adjustable wrench to.
If you leave the nipple in the drum, as you rotate the wrench, it will bump into the side of the nipple and it can't rotate further without the drum turning. I've done this dozens of times and it works great.

I think I might need a little more oomph that I can get from a 6" wrench. 16" would be more like it.

No. A little 6 inch wrench will be more than enough to turn the drum. Drums typically have a 5/16" or 3/8" thread on them and they aren't torqued down hard. Just enough torque to line up the nipple with the hammer is all that is required.

 

[longcruise]

I had to replace a CVA drum that someone had put a wrench on. When it came up against the nipple, it being harder metal it squashed it over and wrecked the nipple threads. I don't know what he used on it but it was some kind of wrench.

 

[Carbon 6]

This is like a game show, The audience has given lots of good advice to the contestant, now I'm waiting to see which door he chooses.

 

[Stony Broke]

About a one minute fix !

 

[Hylander]

Thanks for the suggestions.
No it does not fire the way it is.
I got the hammer off, I do not want to heat this cast part up and possibly brake it.
I cut a relief notch in the front and relieved the inside if the hammer.
Also shortened a nipple.
All of this barely made any difference.
It will fire now but still drags on the caps.
Next I am going to try to turn the drum, but I have read that these CVA's
are funky concerning the drum install and may not go well trying to turn it.

 

[hawkeye2]

You won't have to worry about turning or removing the drum, it will be the same as if it was installed directly into the barrel. Where you will run into trouble is if you remove the drum, remove the breech plug and then try to reassemble the thing.

 

[Hylander]

Well,
I went ahead and removed the drum.
Was tight but came right out.
The threads are damaged on the drum but I chased the threads in the barrel and they are fine.
I just ordered a new drum from TOW.

 

[MC One Shot]

Remove the nipple, find a machine screw that fits the nipple hole thread. Take 3/8" socket that fits over the drum. Drill a hole in the wall of the socket just enough for the machine screw to fit. Place the socket over the drum and align the two holes up and thread in the machine screw in. Lefty loosey unscrew the drum. Make up a shim washer and replace the drum.

 

[bang]

Well,
I went ahead and removed the drum.
Was tight but came right out.
The threads are damaged on the drum but I chased the threads in the barrel and they are fine.
I just ordered a new drum from TOW.

Getting a drum with the nipple hole already drilled that will line up without more work is slim. You would have been better off using something to cushion the tool and just backing it out a tad. If it was me I would dress it up and put it back in and add a thin washer if needed.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Thanks for the suggestions.
No it does not fire the way it is.
I got the hammer off, I do not want to heat this cast part up and possibly brake it.

I have a "Black Powder Gunsmithing from 1978 that has several chapters on building kit firearms. One of them was on the CVA Mountain Rifle. One part of it was the alignment of the hammer to the nipple. Yes, the instruction was to heat the bend of the hammer to orange and using a box end wrench that fits over the hammer nose to bend the hammer into alignment. I think I may have posted this process in the gun building section a year or so back.

Here is my posting (#7):
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/removing-drum.116820/#post-1597454

 

[user 34300]

The drum should never be removed on a CVA. Disregarding that, it might have been a good idea to file wrench flats on the drum. That is pretty trashed now. Vice grips and pipe wrenches are the wrong tool for the job. I sounds like a wrench bearing on the nipple would have budged the drum counterclockwise. That begs the question, the hole for the chamber should line up with the chamber. Turing it makes a fouling trap.

The TRACK drum is not suitable for the intended purpose. They should not sell them. The threaded portion is way to short. There will be a large void of threaded chamber in front of the drum threads. That area will be a fouling trap. It will plug up with goop and your rifle will not fire.

I say clean it up as best you can. Put it back, with a smooth jaw wrench. And bend the hammer.

 

[Carbon 6]

Well,
I went ahead and removed the drum.
Was tight but came right out.
The threads are damaged on the drum but I chased the threads in the barrel and they are fine.
I just ordered a new drum from TOW.

Well, Now you're screwed. Your gun is now forever branded, "DO NOT BUY".

 

[Phil Coffins]

Reclocking a CVA drum is a fool’s errand, the hammer must be reworked. Yet another reason to avoid cheap guns. Sorry I can’t be gentler with the harsh reality.

What’s the use of the giving advice based on years of experience when those with little knowledge of the problem just want to do what seems right to them.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Phil's advice was good in 1978 when "Black Powder Gunsmithing" was published and the hot bending of the hammer is good advice now.

Carbon 6 has pretty well described the resale condition for that rifle.

Scota@4570 is correct with respect to the drum. While the TotW drum installation will likely have the result of getting the rifle in a condition that it may be fired. The TotW drum will leave a place for fouling and corrosion to accumulate. Not an advisable solution.

 

[Ames]

I would have had no problem installing a new drum and drilling it myself. I have the jig and its easy. But that's just me.
I had a similar problem with a GPR a couple years back. Everyone said heat it and bend it. Ended up mortising the tang back another 1/16" and filling the tang screw hole. Dragged the barrel backwards, drilled a new hole and the cap goes off every time.
But that's just me.

 

[Okie Hog]

Wait for the part where the drum was removed with vise grips.

 

[Hylander]

Phil Coffins said: "it is a fools errand to remove the drum", without explanation.
Some say they can not be removed,others say "should not" and other's say no problem,
so I decided to find out for myself.
Also some say don't heat and bend the hammer because it is cast and could break.
Because of this I decided not to try, since Hammers are not available.
I did find all the info on how they were installed, not the best way to install a drum in the first place.

Okie Hog says: "Wait for the part where the drum was removed with vise grips".
Yes, I used vice grips to remove it, I was not planning on saving it.

Carbon 6 says: "Well, Now you're screwed, Your gun is now forever branded, "DO NOT BUY"."
This was an inexpensive rifle as a project, no plan to resale.
Also, it will in no way be unsafe or unreliable when I am finished.

I do appreciate everyone's advise.
I take in everyone's advise and then like Phil Coffins say's: I do what seems right to me.
Just because I do not follow all the advise does not mean I do not listen or appreciate that advise.

 

[Carbon 6]

I don't understand your fear of bending the hammer, they are ridiculously easy to bend when heated, and easily replaceable if you screw it up, which is is unlikely.
As I said, getting the hammer off is the hard part and you accomplished that.

lot's of good advice, don't know who told you to remove the bolster.

I wish your outcome had been better, but many of us tried to warn you.
Live and learn, I look at this as a great learning experience for the next guy.

 

[Hylander]

I don't understand your fear of bending the hammer, they are ridiculously easy to bend when heated, and easily replaceable if you screw it up, which is is unlikely.
As I said, getting the hammer off is the hard part and you accomplished that.
lot's of good advice, don't know who told you to remove the bolster.
I wish your outcome had been better, but many of us tried to warn you.
Live and learn, I look at this as a great learning experience for the next guy.

So far the outcome is fine, just what I was hoping.
Barrel and threads are undamaged, I think I can save the drum and I also have a new drum coming
just incase.
Yes, the hard part was getting the hammer off.

 

[user 34300]

"Also, it will in no way be unsafe or unreliable when I am finished."
Disagree, the TRACK drum is flawed and not usable. There will be a large void where the original longer drum threads were. That will fill with crap in short order. There is no way to clean it out. Your rifle will stop firing reliably at some point.

" I was not planning on saving it."
Unfortunately you can not replicate the CVA plug configuration because you do not have to tooling to do so. Your plan to use the track drum is flawed.

An explanation on the why of all of this is in order. CVA installed the breech plugs. They then installed the drum. The chamber in the breech plug was connected to the drum using a piloted drill through the bore. That is not easily duplicated at home. Messing with the plug or drum ruins the gun.

Hammers and other lock parts are 99% cast. Only one manufacturer, Jim Kibler, is machining lock parts. There is no issue with heating and bending cast parts. It is routine and easy. Bending the hammer was a 20 minuet easy job. Replicating the drum is near impossible.

I still say peen the gashes out of the original drum and re-install it.

Hammers are easy to remove. Do not pry the off with a screwdriver. Use a square steel punch that fits the square in the hammer. Support the plate with steel blocks or vice jaws. Tap the tumbler out of the the hammer. Easy peezie.