Hard card on top of shot= denser patterns?

[Skychief]

I juggled components in my 12 gauge caplock this weekend, looking for a denser turkey pattern.

I've had great luck with a load of 80 grains 2f, hard (nitro) card, 1 5/8 ounces of chilled 6's, and an overshot card topping it all off.

At one point, I used the identical load, except, I used a hard (nitro) card on top of the shot.

The pattern produced was denser than my usual turkey loading using a thin card atop the shot.

Thinking it may have been a fluke I tried several more. Each produced better (denser) patterns than my load of a few years which has never failed me in the turkey woods.

It goes against traditional thinking, but, the proof is in the pudding. I can't explain it, but, the gun likes that heavy card on top of the shot.

Anybody able to explain it?

Have any of you tried such a loading in your smoothbores? Results?

Best regards, Skychief.

 

[smoothshooter]

If it works, go for it!

 

[BlackJack]

Hey SC, working on the same problem just now--turkey. Not familiar with nitro cards so I wonder if just doubling up thin cards would help? Watching everything youtube has on the subject I noted that Mike Beliveau believes increasing the powder load and the shot load will give you the more destructive patterns you need for turkey, like 2oz of shot over 110gr of 2F. I also noted a turkey load that uses cake mix (sic) to fill in the gaps in your shot load to get a denser pattern. I'll be following your thread and will post any results I get. Waiting on the arrival of a new 16ga fowler as we speak.

 

[Skychief]

BlackJack, the nitro cards I refer to are also referred to as "over powder cards". Hard cards about 1/8" thick.

A load of 110 grains and 2 ounces might kill on both ends of the gun! :shocked2:

I've done a lot of pattern work with my 12 gauge and used cornmeal as a "buffer" to the shot. I have since stopped its use, if for no other reason than to forego an extra step in loading. You can search my old topics and find a lot of discussion about patterning guns for turkey work from a lot of knowledgeable hunters here.

It seems each gun is a different animal when it comes to finding what it wants to produce dense patterns.

My smoothbores, the 12 and a 20 seem to prefer a 40/60 ratio of powder/shot (in volumetric terms) for their densest patterns.

Best of luck and have fun getting to know you 16!

Best regards, Skychief.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Glad for you but don't you worry that your shot is not being 'cushioned' by a 'cushion' wad!

B :haha:

 

[Rifleman1776]

Odd but if it works, do it.
Strange you don't use a cushion wad.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

If it works, it works. If it works consistently, all the better. The only thing I would do is try it as the first shot from a clean barrel. That is usually the one that gets the bird.

I keep turkey shots to under 20 yards, with decoys at 18, 14 and 12 yards. 1 ¼ oz. over 70 grains has worked very well.

Why does the over powder wad work as a top wad when it is not supposed to? :idunno: Because it is a muzzle loader; and as we often see they do not always make sense.

 

[Skychief]

Cushion wads makes my gun shoot donuts. Even 1/2 and 1/4 cushion wads disturb the center of its patterns.

 

[Skychief]

If it works, it works. If it works consistently, all the better. The only thing I would do is try it as the first shot from a clean barrel. That is usually the one that gets the bird.

I couldn't agree more Ron.

I scrub the bore well and run about ten patches through it between test shots.

I have found that a fouled bore makes much different patterns than a cleaned one, depending on the load being used.

Cleaning between shots makes for slower shooting, but, makes the fun last longer. :thumbsup:

 

[Skychief]

Gave up on cushion wads with this gun awhile back Brit'. Haven't missed them either. :thumbsup:

 

[Britsmoothy]

I actually believe chokes were invented to not improve range but to get around the disruptive nature of the volume of gas produced from bp on the patterns and associated wad in the cartridge of yesteryear!
Only hunch but....

 

[coloradoclyde]

Anybody able to explain it?

I am just guessing... but I am basing it on high speed photos. My theory is that the heavier thicker card on top of the shot column takes longer to move out of the way after leaving the barrel. This means that the column stays together longer, resulting in less disruption and a tighter pattern down range.

It's just a theory but as soon as the snow melts I will try it.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Cushion wads makes my gun shoot donuts. Even 1/2 and 1/4 cushion wads disturb the center of its patterns.

The ml game is a funny avocation. Another recent thread on smoothies someone explained how that phenom is impossible. :hmm:

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

This is very interesting. At the suggestion of old Paul V., I tried using several over shot cards in my loads and that proved to be very successful. So currently my load is one nitro card, one lubed felt wad, shot encapsulated in paper and three over shot cards. I drilled a tiny hole, off center on the over shot cards and load them so the holes don’t line up. This has been very good load for turkeys, especially since I’m using a 28 gauge.

 

[wrichi]

Dear sir
Just a doubt, is it possible the load flipping over the thin wad?
Thank you sir

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Since we are all theorizing. Reports of muzzle loaders shooting donut shaped patterns that improved with thinner cushion wads, softer wad materials or in many cases simply eliminating the cushion wad altogether, are not all that unusual.

High speed photos show at the wad separates from the shot column before the shot column has begun to spread, so the wad does not punch a hole in the shot column. However the photos do not show the powder gas flow.

It is my theory that certain powder/wad/shot/bore combinations produce gas turbulences, which upsets the shot column and produces donut patterns. Removing or changing the wad alters the gas flow. Just an opinion but it may explain why some guns shoot better with no wads.

Remember a guess is only a guess; a look at the shot pattern tells the real story.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Ron. Do you have a link to the video?
I would love to see slowmo of a muzzleloader smoothbore and shot.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Not exactly what you requested but its still interesting... just ignore that its an unmentionable. :grin:

https://youtu.be/Cjkvo3QF1ZM


https://youtu.be/Iy7a-RdOVek

 

[coloradoclyde]

Sometimes I wonder how we don't singe our eyebrows :grin:

https://youtu.be/oHF6BXhUzcA

 

[JD Peppergrinder]

If you look closely you can see a dark string of what I assume is shot.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl3eVFSdbzw

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QMnlEQ-qHiE