Hornady 385 grain M\L Bullets

[Davemuzz]

I was ordering some "stuff" from Grafts this week and since I was scanning thru their site I decided to try a different bullet for my 50 caliber 1-72 twist Green Mountain barrel flint lock T\C.

Last year I switched to the Hornady PA Conical and had excellent results not only with accuracy, but also with "knock down" power on deer. Well, I keep hearing thru the grapevine that Hornady is going to quit making the PA Conical, so I bought some 385 Grain Hornady Lead 50 cal bullets to try.

The PA Conicals are 230 grain and I shoot 90 grains of FF powder. I was thinking of using the same amount of powder for the 385 grain bullet.....but just "fishing" for any thoughts or if anyone had ever shot these boolits?

Dave

 

[roundball]

Just as a point of information, conicals usually do best in a barrels made for them, ie: faster twist and shallow grooves...not sure what to expect trying conicals in a deep groove 1:72" slow twist round ball barrel...I'd be very pleased if you get decent accuracy but I'm a little skeptical that you will...

 

[Davemuzz]

It's not a matter of "if" it will or "won't" get good groups, the fact is the Hornady PA Conical gives me (and many others who shoot it from slow twist barrels) excellent groups. The Hornady PA Conical is specifically designed to shoot from a slow twist barrel.

Here is what it says on the Hornady web site about the Pa Conical:

The ideal choice for any hunter who wants to use a longer-barreled, slower twist firearm. Hornady's PA Conical bullets deliver greater accuracy and more knock-down power. Our PA bullets are pre-lubed with special knurled grooves on the bearing surface to hold the lubricant on the bullet ”” no need for a patch or sabot. Packaged 50 per box.

Like I stated in my orginal post, I use 90 grains of FF Goex powder, a wad, then the PA Conical.

I purchased two boxes of the Pa Conical's last fall, and if I can find 'em, I would buy another 6 boxes. I don't think this heavier bullet is going to work as well as the PA Conical.....but I thought I'd ask.

Dave

 

[roundball]

This the question you asked that I was responding to:

"...I was thinking of using the same amount of powder for the 385 grain bullet.....but just "fishing" for any thoughts or if anyone had ever shot these boolits?.."

A 385grn Hornady Great Plains Bullet is a far cry from a "PA Conical".

 

[jtmattison]

Try Buffalo Ball-ets. They're basically the same as the PA conical.
I don't think the 385 grain conicals will group well out of your barrel.

HD

 

[Sharp Shooter]

You never never know but your rifle could shoot those Great Plains just fine. If those dont work try the Buffalo Ball-et.

 

[paulvallandigham]

There is a difference in performance in slow twist barrels based on the length of the bullet. The under 300 grain bullets work well because they are relatively short. The heavier bullets are longer, and will need a faster ROT barrel to make them shoot well. That is why gunmakers choose barrels with a ROT of 1:32, 1:36, and sometimes as fast as 1:22 to shoot conicals through. Sometimes you do get lucky and find a certain weight and design of bullet that will shoot well in even a very slow ROT barrel, with a given powder charge. But, that is the exception, and not the norm. The lighter, shorter, bullets tend to shoot better in the slow twist barrels.

That having been said, there is absolutely NO reason to be using any conical to shoot any deer on this continent. The PRB is excellent for this work. Any idea of " knock-down " power is a fallacy, as these conicals tend to Not expand when they hit deer, and slip through the animal without dumping as much energy as the lighter PRB will leave. The primary wound channel of a PRB is Huge by comparison to that left by a similar caliber conical. Neither can be pushed fast enough to give a convincing Secondary Wound Channel, as is routinely done with the modern rifle cartridge bullets traveling over 2,500 fps. Without a Secondary would channel, you don't get the shock to the vital organs and central nervous system needed to " knock a deer down", unless you make a direct hit on these structures, or organs with your primary wound channel.

The PRB, made of pure lead, expands beautifully, and predictably in the soft tissue of a deer's body. Its not uncommon for the ball to expand to the size of a quarter, or almost double its original dimension in the short span of 6-8 inches, which represents the breadth of a deer's rib cage behind the shoulder.

If you are going to insist on using conicals to hunt deer, use hollow points, or wadcutters. Any expansion, or blunt nosed tissue destruction will produce a faster kill than using a non-expanding conical with a rounded nose.

 

[Old Charlie]

I have a 300, 320 and 380 lee molds that I bought when I first started. But sense I get complete pass through on deer with round ball with either my .50 or.54 can't see using that much lead. Have been melting some of those lee's that have been laying around down and making round balls out of them.
Old Charlie

 

[BrownBear]

I jinked around quite a bit with conicals in my 1:60 GPR 54, including a variety of home cast and commercial. It wasn't till I got down to Ballets that I felt like it was viable. Everything else was too long for the slow twist. With very hot loads only I could get fair groups at 50 yards (4-6") with the heavier ones, but by the time those same loads reached a 100 yard target, they wouldn't stay on the target paper. A big target paper. Based on that I haven't bothered tp try it with my GPR 50.

My shooting pard got a 1:32 Lyman barrel (I think that's what I recall it was) in addition to his 1:60. Startlingly good results with almost any conical he shoves down it. Interesting enough, if I recall correctly it shoots PRB's way better than a slow twist will shoot conicals. I can see why TC and others compromised on 1:48 in their 50 cal, for shooters that want to use both.

If I had the eyes and inclination for longer shooting, I'd be hot to get a 1:32 barrel. But inside 100 yards I haven't seen any need for conicals on game.

It's mostly a taste thing, with pushers for either type trying to sell their favorite flavor. Long as they're all lead, I don't give a big whoop what others use. I'm just happy as heck that they're willing to shoot traditional muzzleloaders and welcome them to the fire. There's lots more interesting and important things to set your teeth into.

 

[Davemuzz]

Paul,

I've killed a lot of deer in the last 25 years with my T\C Hawken. Most with the factory barrel and some with the GM barrel. Up until this year I've shot mostly PRB. I shot a few powerbelts somewhere in there, and gave the rest to some unsuspecting fellow.

I've recovered most of the PRB shot. I shoot the Hornady RB. I've never once recovered a "quarter size" expanded RB in any deer I've hit. If the RB was deformed it was from bone and I could tell you what bone it was when it was hanging in the cooler after I skinned it.

The PA Conical lead is a bit softer than the RB according to the fingernail test. Both deer that I hit with the Conical were recovered in under 25 yards and the Conical was not recovered in either one. The wound channel was impressive....much more so than any RB I've shot.

Give a choice in equal accuracy, I will shoot a heavier bullet from a M\L any day of the week. More mass at the same FPS hitting the target means bigger wound channels when tumbling starts. Conicals tumble. RB's? It doesn't matter if RB's tumble or not.

The only thing that kills a deer is blood loss to the CNS. This is accomplished by disruption of blood flow via big nasty wound channels.....or severing of nerve conduction to the heart.

Bigger chunks of lead flying at the same FPS as smaller chunks of lead will give you a higher probably of faster disruption.

Dave

 

[paulvallandigham]

Well, your experience differs from mine. First, YOU ARE NOT going to send a conical out at the same high velocity that you can send out a PRB. If you try, you will be exceeding the pressure limits for which the gun is designed.

80 Grains of FFg powder, for instance, with a RB will give you about 1700 fps MV. The same powder charge with a 370 grain maxiball comes in about 1200 fps. MV. Actual velocity will vary from these numbers based on barrel length, actual bore dimension, your loading technique and choice of components.

Your observations of what a PRB will do with a primary wound channel is different than my own. I politely accept that we can disagree on this matter.

 

[Bountyhunter]

I have not run these over a chrono, but my Santa Fe .53 with 66" twist is accurate with either the Great Plains or Buffalo Ball-ets. I do believe that the Ball-ets are more accurate as they are shorter. The HGP Bullet is 390 grains and packs a tremendous wallop, and the Buffalo Ball-et is a 338 gr HP. I run them both out over 100 gr of tightly compressed FFg.

I tried the TC Maxi's and I have no good news to report on them

I dont actually need the ball-et for my rifle, the RB works fine on deer and other 200# targets, but I like the confidence of knowing that if I pull that smoke pole on a black bear or elk that it too is going to expire in sight.

OH>notice that the GP bullet comes in packs of 15 for that price, not 50 as the other bullets do. Buffalo Ball-ets come 50 to the box. Lotsa diff in price there.

I am going to pose this challenge, guys. When hunting season gets back here, I'm going to take pictures of the INSIDE of the carcasses to show the terminal effects. If you guys will do the same on different species, that will put an end to a lot of arguments. If you have caliber, load, and projectile with pics, then that is the end of the story.

 

[tg]

"I dont actually need the ball-et for my rifle, the RB works fine on deer and other 200# targets, but I like the confidence of knowing that if I pull that smoke pole on a black bear or elk that it too is going to expire in sight."

A conical will not make this a for sure thing any better than a ball.

 

[windwalker_au]

Well, your experience differs from mine. First, YOU ARE NOT going to send a conical out at the same high velocity that you can send out a PRB. If you try, you will be exceeding the pressure limits for which the gun is designed.

80 Grains of FFg powder, for instance, with a RB will give you about 1700 fps MV. The same powder charge with a 370 grain maxiball comes in about 1200 fps. MV. Actual velocity will vary from these numbers based on barrel length, actual bore dimension, your loading technique and choice of components.

Your observations of what a PRB will do with a primary wound channel is different than my own. I politely accept that we can disagree on this matter.

Paul this is a couple of pics of a lee .50 cal improved minie that was recoverd from a 130 lbs big billy goat funny it seems to have expanded, it has the base plug turned down to give it a thicker skirt it is 375 grn "no" hollow point driven by 100 grn of wano fff it is doing 1545 fps =1988fpe,the goat droped on the spot like it was hit by a bolt of lightening.
bernie :thumbsup:

 

[Rat Trapper]

I have shot a number of deer with the Hornady 385 gr great plains 50 cal bullet and the Hornady GP 390 gr 54 cal bullets. Wound channel is very big. I recovered a 50 cal GP bullet last fall and it did in fact expand very well and retained most of it's orginal bullet weight. This is all with the orginal TC barrels and 1-48 twist.

 

[gjkershul]

Shot two cow elk-broadside shots- with the .50 cal Hornady GP bullet on top of 90 gr. Goex 3f. Both had first shots that were about 100yds. Both first shots did not go through the thoracic cavity. Both required a second shot to harvest. I was very lucky to get a second shot in both instances. I am now using a .54 430 grain minie out of my Lyman GP Hunter or a 566gr. Lyman Parker-Hale minie out of a Euroarms 1861 Enfield Musketoon. The musketoon packs better on an ATV or mule.

 

[longcruise]

I've recovered most of the PRB shot. I shoot the Hornady RB. I've never once recovered a "quarter size" expanded RB in any deer I've hit. If the RB was deformed it was from bone and I could tell you what bone it was when it was hanging in the cooler after I skinned it.

You don't mention your powder charge or velocity on those rbs. I've found that if they are traveling around 1200 fps or faster on impact that they will expand somewhat. If you are recovering rbs that show no deformation, they are probably moving pretty slow on impact and not fast enough to completely pass through but they still deliver a fatal wound.

Conicals tumble

I'm not disagreeing with you on that statement, but, still, how do you know it tumbles?

One factor that is in play when it comes to wound channels is the disruption factor you speak of. The actuality is that the more harsh or abrupt is the disruption, the faster the wound will coagulate and seal itself off. Coagulation is initiated by the disruption of platelets in the blood. The more severe the disruption the faster and more thorough the coagulation. It's the bodys defense against blood loss and the first effort of the body to seal and heal a wound. A bruise is the coagulation of blood caused by an impact that gave the platelets the signal to coagulate. The most effective killing wound is delivered with the least disruption to blood cells (not comparing to central nervous system hits here).

Cut yourself with a sharp razor and notice how difficult it is to stop the bleeding. OTOH, if you have ever cut yourself abruptly with a less sharp or even a blunt instrument you will have noticed that the wound coagulated and sealed off much more quickly.

When a bowhunter hits a deer with a very sharp broadhead that penetrates both lungs, the coagulation factor is minimized and the animal loses blood pressure very quickly. All with somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 to 40 foot pounds of energy.

If there are any medical people on the forum they can probably explain this much better than I can. :redface:

 

[Kentuckywindage]

Shot two cow elk-broadside shots- with the .50 cal Hornady GP bullet on top of 90 gr. Goex 3f. Both had first shots that were about 100yds. Both first shots did not go through the thoracic cavity. Both required a second shot to harvest. I was very lucky to get a second shot in both instances. I am now using a .54 430 grain minie out of my Lyman GP Hunter or a 566gr. Lyman Parker-Hale minie out of a Euroarms 1861 Enfield Musketoon. The musketoon packs better on an ATV or mule.

+1

I only shot one animal with the 385 GP and the first shot was my fault as i had my rifle sighted 3" high @ 100 and it was a 90 yard shot and i forgot about the 3" adjustment i had set up. Hit the spine and i walked to within 80 yards and planted the bullet direct through the shoulder. The bullet almost was in 2 pieces and only penetrated through one shoulder. I was using 80g pyrodex RS.
After that i havent considered using the GP and i darn sure will never touch the maxiballs.

Forgot to add that it was a mule deer doe i had shot.

 

[tg]

"After that i havent considered using the GP and i darn sure will never touch the maxiballs."

I have heard many make similar observations and not only with that bullet, seems like keeping it simple with a plain ol' RB is a pretty sensible choice, but many are just drawn to use something perceived to be better even if it is only so on paper, good luck to those trying to find the "right" projectile....it is out there..

 

[Idaho Ron]

Give me a break! Ron