India Barrel Failure

[FlinterNick]

I would not trust any thing from middlesex … google the companies bbb record and reviews.

​

Review from Frederick K​

1 star
01/17/2024
Ordered a small part on November 11, 2023. I received an order acknowledgement immediately but one month later there was still no shipping information. I sent a polite email asking for an update and, instead of an update, received a nasty response from Peter P******* telling me that I would be given an update when it was available and to leave him alone. So, I waited another couple weeks and then sent him a request for refund which went unanswered. Finally, in mid-January I sent a note telling him to refund my money or I would open a dispute with my credit card company. I got another nasty reply from Peter P******* calling me a "*******", "entitled", and a "Karen". He has also banned me as a customer which I take as a badge of honor. If he doesn't refund my money, I'll file a complaint with BBB.

Initial Complaint​

02/14/2022
Complaint Type:Service or Repair Issues
Status:Unanswered
More info
I ordered a pistol from Middlesex Trading Company XX-X- XXXX. Pistol # ****** Invoice # **** Amount # $405.00 Per website, (X-X-XXXX)"Your order is not built yet." Request for refund, minus 20% cancellation fee was sent via e-mail 1-26-2022 Solution requested: Check sent to: ****** ***** **** **** St. ******, ** ***** Amount: $324.00 Respectfully ****** ***** phone ***-***-**** email: *********@gmail.com

 

[French Colonial]

If I read their site correctly Middlesex is a distributor and not a manufacturer, and I can assure you that just because a distributor says something about a manufacturers product that does not mean it is gospel.

I do not know of any manufacturers in India (such as Pedersoli or Uberti etc. in Italy) but would be interested in an India manufacturer's firsthand information.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Sounds like this Indian Gun thing is like a scratch off Lottery Ticket....except you lose and not win....

Going by veteran and loyalist 10,000+:0 odds. Considering sales with no documented failures sounds like a near guaranteed win not loss.

 

[springfield art]

Keep in mind; Veteran Arms, Middlesex, whoever else, have been selling these for ages. There are/were bad and good factories; I'd think these vendors are knowledgeable and have legal exposure. I recently posted about a 1980's era Bess from India, by Rajasthan Armory; the kind fellow from Veteran Arms wrote me a hand-printed letter outlining info about it even though I'd not bought it from him.

 

[springfield art]

Indian steel manufacturing is known for using recycled steel. the Indian steel scrap segment is unorganized and uncontrolled with a vast network of it comprising of unorganized small steel producers who predominantly use steel scrap and other types of materials for steel production. This at times has resulted in poor quality steel.

The prices on many of these Indian guns reflect the materials being used, cheaper wood and metal. India does manufacture some fine firearms made of high quality materials, so there’s that confidence.

However the way many Indian made barrels are manufactured and designed i think has more to do with it. many of these barrels are not drilled form bar stock, they forged into a tube, a very difficult process to do with steel, but absolutely can be done with Iron or wrought iron. You need much higher temperatures to hammer forge steel into a tube for effective butt welds. I think most are ok, but they few that have exploded that are on the internet all have unseamed at the welded areas.

Lastly, the breech’s on most are just too small, even original iron gun barrels often had heavier breeches for safety reasons. Many of these modern repro from Indian wouldn’t pass an 18th century inspection. That includes a pedersoli bess, however they do disclose what steel they use and are proof tested.

Again, there are bad and good manufacturers; I bet the importers use the better ones; they don't want law suits, returns, etc. Would be fun to read "insider information" if any dealers want to post. Also I'd like to know what processing they do with a shipment; do they have to stain? Proof? etc. The barrel on my India Bess is very nicely made. Has GR and those crossed hammers, what ever they are, on the breech, but the mfg. data is UNDER the barrel, a nice touch.

 

[camoloc]

Again, there are bad and good manufacturers; I bet the importers use the better ones; they don't want law suits, returns, etc. Would be fun to read "insider information" if any dealers want to post. Also I'd like to know what processing they do with a shipment; do they have to stain? Proof? etc. The barrel on my India Bess is very nicely made. Has GR and those crossed hammers, what ever they are, on the breech, but the mfg. data is UNDER the barrel, a nice touch.

I've had zero problems with my military/access/heritage sea svc pistol 9"

my usual load is 40 grn 3f and patched .610 ball.

I would not think twice about

its ability to handle 80 grns and a double ball proof load.

camo

 

[springfield art]

Thanks! I saw some time ago a statement on the site of Middlesex regarding their products. I think at one time Veteran Arms stated they had to stain all the stocks? Wonder if any of the importers actually ever visited India to tour the factories? I used to work with some Indian people at a hospital setting, and they're really nice fun people.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

14 pages now ... seriously?

I had posted waaaay back on Page 6 that this was THE FIRST barrel made in India that appears to have burst that was NOT due to User error ... and yet you're still discussing it? Keyboard cowboys have at it, LOL!

Me? I spend my free time shootin', haha!

 

[Frontier's]

I'd love to see their "factory"...

 

[Rudyard]

Wishful thinking.
They aren't going to quiet down, and they aren't going to try and look at the supposed issue with any sense of objectivity or scale.

Once "Henny Penny" starts crying that the sky is falling, she is about as likely to stop as a pine squirrel is likely to stop barking at you because you don't really pose a threat and are sitting still deer hunting. Same with the, "all India made guns are bad," "Never glue a powder horn base plug," "take precautions to avoid static electricity with your powder," "NEVER use fine powder in larger bores," crowd.

Could one describe them as Affirmed F M Es viz Five minet experts ?. But it wouldn't help .perhaps "Where ignorance is bliss tis folly to be wise." might south them.
Rudyard being Harry & Billy

 

[Sidney Smith]

This is why I'll never buy anything coming out of India. I trust Chinesium more than I do that reclaimed washing machine metal the Indians sell.

 

[Mikekj]

This is why I'll never buy anything coming out of India. I trust Chinesium more than I do that reclaimed washing machine metal the Indians sell.

They are not the third world county most believe them to be.
If you take any kind of medication, prescription or otc, it probably came from India.

 

[Commodore Swab]

14 pages now ... seriously?

I had posted waaaay back on Page 6 that this was THE FIRST barrel made in India that appears to have burst that was NOT due to User error ... and yet you're still discussing it? Keyboard cowboys have at it, LOL!

Me? I spend my free time shootin', haha!

Apparently a barrel made by a competitor is enough to condemn others. Some dislike this approach and feel it is wrong. Much like saying Ford had a recall so Chevy is bad. Seems like comparing corn to peas because they are both veggies. Adults may know they are different but to a kid it's all veggies....

 

[Frontier's]

Oh kinda like my real black powder is better than pyrodex....

 

[Brokennock]

Oh kinda like my real black powder is better than pyrodex....

Isn't it?

 

[shorthair]

The only way to determine the barrels structural integrity and it,s failure is metallurgy Forensics.
Anything else is just speculation.

Yeah Sam Falada did some interesting tests but even he said that he didn't have the equipment to make firm conclusions just suppositions. IIRC he used an off the shelf 1" 58cal barrel with 600 gr of fffg and 3 600gr minnies with no measure able damage, only when he separated the minnies did he get a failure.

 

[FlinterNick]

14 pages now ... seriously?

I had posted waaaay back on Page 6 that this was THE FIRST barrel made in India that appears to have burst that was NOT due to User error ... and yet you're still discussing it? Keyboard cowboys have at it, LOL!

Me? I spend my free time shootin', haha!

keyboard cowboys aka internet trolls don’t like facts. They need to keep the argument moving with innuendos and parodies. The best one yet … dont just a government CIP proof house ! Right o, why would a government proof house in the republic of Hungary fail and Indian made barrel purposely to stop some American company from selling Indian made guns or they used smokeless powder, because the CIP proof houses are just that dumb, right o. The conjecture and misdirects of some of these folks is stupendous.

 

[FlinterNick]

Again, there are bad and good manufacturers; I bet the importers use the better ones; they don't want law suits, returns, etc. Would be fun to read "insider information" if any dealers want to post. Also I'd like to know what processing they do with a shipment; do they have to stain? Proof? etc. The barrel on my India Bess is very nicely made. Has GR and those crossed hammers, what ever they are, on the breech, but the mfg. data is UNDER the barrel, a nice touch.

I dont think the importers really care about the quality. They care about selling them for a 100% profit. Do you really think companies like Veteran Arms or Loyalist arms or Middlesex Trading have quality control standards with the Indian companies making these guns? Doubtful, especially since they’re not vented when exported to the USA or anywhere.

Do they stain them? I think they do, i know loyalist sells ones they can’t stain for a very low price, but who wants a gunstock you can’t stain?

They certainly do not proof the guns they import, while they produce instructions on how to proof guns for people to recklessly self proof their own guns, talk to any ‘licensed’ gunsmith in the USA and tell them you want to self proof your own gun they will probably wonder if you’re off your meds.

So if your proof test passes are you going to tell people you proofed it? What if it explodes after you sell it, what’s the warranty value here ? Sir since you proofed my barrel can you and it failed after, can you replace it now ? How about no. That’s the reason why none of these distributors will proof their own, there is too much legal liability on their end to make such a claim or warranty, let alone potential causality and liability issues to the shooter.

anyone can put a fake 250 year old proof stamp on a barrel, it literally means nothing, now if the King’s men rise from the grave and find out you have a forged stamp of theirs, they may want to hang you, but they probably would willfully go back to their grave seeing what their country has turned into.

 

[Blackpowderart]

So what is the conclusion??? Do we like inda made guns or don't we?

 

[Commodore Swab]

keyboard cowboys aka internet trolls don’t like facts. They need to keep the argument moving with innuendos and parodies. The best one yet … dont just a government CIP proof house ! Right o, why would a government proof house in the republic of Hungary fail and Indian made barrel purposely to stop some American company from selling Indian made guns or they used smokeless powder, because the CIP proof houses are just that dumb, right o. The conjecture and misdirects of some of these folks is stupendous.

To use an argument from "Animal House" . . .
If a barrel from company A is bad and therefore company B produces bad barrels one can assume all barrels from country X are bad. If all barrels from company X are bad then shouldn't it be assumed all barrels are bad. Thus the single failure must condemn all black powder barrels regardless of type or manufacture. . .

I dont think the importers really care about the quality. They care about selling them for a 100% profit. Do you really think companies like Veteran Arms or Loyalist arms or Middlesex Trading have quality control standards with the Indian companies making these guns? Doubtful, especially since they’re not vented when exported to the USA or anywhere.

Do they stain them? I think they do, i know loyalist sells ones they can’t stain for a very low price, but who wants a gunstock you can’t stain?

They certainly do not proof the guns they import, while they produce instructions on how to proof guns for people to recklessly self proof their own guns, talk to any ‘licensed’ gunsmith in the USA and tell them you want to self proof your own gun they will probably wonder if you’re off your meds.

So if your proof test passes are you going to tell people you proofed it? What if it explodes after you sell it, what’s the warranty value here ? Sir since you proofed my barrel can you and it failed after, can you replace it now ? How about no. That’s the reason why none of these distributors will proof their own, there is too much legal liability on their end to make such a claim or warranty, let alone potential causality and liability issues to the shooter.

anyone can put a fake 250 year old proof stamp on a barrel, it literally means nothing, now if the King’s men rise from the grave and find out you have a forged stamp of theirs, they may want to hang you, but they probably would willfully go back to their grave seeing what their country has turned into.

Yes, they care about the quality. They do not sell them at 100% profit, in fact it is a small percentage. Considering each gun is taken apart, lock made to work, and vented saying they are not inspected is foolish. Some are stained some aren't, depends on the importer. Those that are are taken down to bare wood and refinished. For years Veteran personally proofed every gun they sold, this was to insure quality control not as an official proof stamp.

So what is the conclusion??? Do we like inda made guns or don't we?

Yes and no. They are filling a void where there is no competition. I would love to see other options. Most who have and use them are very happy with what they have for the price. Many are frustrated they are so cheap and seek to discredit them while providing no alternatives. Sort of like a cheap car next to an expensive, they both get you where you want to go but one is far more comfortable. Only with these guns it's more like cheap car or no car.