India Barrel Failure

[tenngun]

Indian steel manufacturing is known for using recycled steel. the Indian steel scrap segment is unorganized and uncontrolled with a vast network of it comprising of unorganized small steel producers who predominantly use steel scrap and other types of materials for steel production. This at times has resulted in poor quality steel.

The prices on many of these Indian guns reflect the materials being used, cheaper wood and metal. India does manufacture some fine firearms made of high quality materials, so there’s that confidence.

However the way many Indian made barrels are manufactured and designed i think has more to do with it. many of these barrels are not drilled form bar stock, they forged into a tube, a very difficult process to do with steel, but absolutely can be done with Iron or wrought iron. You need much higher temperatures to hammer forge steel into a tube for effective butt welds. I think most are ok, but they few that have exploded that are on the internet all have unseamed at the welded areas.

Lastly, the breech’s on most are just too small, even original iron gun barrels often had heavier breeches for safety reasons. Many of these modern repro from Indian wouldn’t pass an 18th century inspection. That includes a pedersoli bess, however they do disclose what steel they use and are proof tested.

Wow
I wonder what old gin barrels were made out of

 

[tenngun]

200 grains 2 f and patched .690 ball
Plus lots of shots with 110 grains 2f and wadded .690

 

[brushblind]

I might be wrong but I thought that was the Japanese currently.

I suspect Italy best all of them!

 

[FlinterNick]

WE can disagree, I have short started and NEVER had that happen, Not even so much as a "Bulged Barrel" I am saying it TAKES more than that to cause that kind of destruction. Either bad photo shop, or someone deliberately packed the barrel with an obstruction. even barrel brittleness energy takes the path of least resistance ball and patch are the weakest point. Just Science

Science ? Science is factual, nothing you said is factual … sure does sound like you have a wild imagination though. Be well sir.

 

[FlinterNick]

Wow
I wonder what old gin barrels were made out of

Oak ?

 

[tenngun]

No bust 200 graind 2F .690 patched ball. Lots at my regular load 110 and wadded bare ball

 

[smoothshooter]

This is a re-post from Kapszli.hu - Capandball.com. as posted on Facebook.
An interesting discussion on the failure of a barrel from an Indian made and imported Doglock pistol to Europe.
The text reads:
"Barrel of an Indian made doglock pistol repro after - unsuccessful - CIP proofing. Wasn't strong enough. / Indiai készítésű kovás pisztoly replika csöve - sikertelen - CIP próba után. Nem volt elég erős.
("Barrel of an Indian made doglock pistol repro after - unsuccessful - CIP proofing. Wasn't strong enough. / Replica pipe of forged pistol made in India - unsuccessful - after CIP trial. It wasn't strong enough.")

The .50 cal rifle proof charge is 13 gram (200.6 grain) powder and 24 gram (370 grain) projectile. The conversion of gram to grain: 1 grain = 0.0648 gram

NOTE: This is what happened when being Proofed (in a CIP Member country) , not by a customer.

But who shoots proof loads while hunting or target shooting?
I find it amusing that European governments and shooters seem to live in abject terror of an occasional gun barrel blowing up, but they routinely drive in excess of 100 MPH on some of their highway systems in cars that don’t have reinforced door panels or shatterproof window glass.
Go figure.

 

[smoothshooter]

Looks like an attempt at bad mouthing guns out of India. With tens of thousands of these guns of various styles many of which are in the hands of inexperienced shooters there should be countless failures and accidents. Every failure I have seen this included can be contributed to operator error, wrong powder, obstructions ect. Any barrel can be blown up and I wouldn't be surprised if the India made barrels were subjected to more attempts than any other.

I would wager that the Indian guns have stronger barrels than muskets made in the 1700’s and 1800’s ever did, and lots of modern shooters have no problem shooting their antique guns all the time.

 

[jd945043]

This has grown tedious. No proof of one failures but we keep hearing the pipe bomb analagy. Since forging a barrel is considered dangerous then you have just condemned any of Wallace Gusslers rifles he produced over his long career. Guy if you feel in danger from these weapons then stay away from them. I shoot moderate loads and there's been no signs of failure. I will look at the evidence you provide but as for your opinion it means nothing except you want to be a arrogant person who tells others they're wrong to have their own opinions.

 

[FlinterNick]

This has grown tedious. No proof of one failures but we keep hearing the pipe bomb analagy. Since forging a barrel is considered dangerous then you have just condemned any of Wallace Gusslers rifles he produced over his long career. Guy if you feel in danger from these weapons then stay away from them. I shoot moderate loads and there's been no signs of failure. I will look at the evidence you provide but as for your opinion it means nothing except you want to be a arrogant person who tells others they're wrong to have their own opinions.

The only person here using the pipe bomb analogy is you.


lol, Wallace Gustler didnt’ forge a barrel out of steel, he used wrought iron, that’s a pretty important fact that people such as yourself pass off as trivial.

 

[FlinterNick]

I would wager that the Indian guns have stronger barrels than muskets made in the 1700’s and 1800’s ever did, and lots of modern shooters have no problem shooting their antique guns all the time.

You might lose that wager if you challenge the wrong person.

 

[danda0624]

I believe the CIP system recognizes proofing methods of member states and yes i’m pretty sure, you can’t get a barrel out of Europe without it being proofed, try ordering a Pedersoli replacement, it will cost you around $900 bucks before its shipped.

I’m not trying to start a fight but I was told by one the importers that Pedersoli only proofs about 1% or less of their muskets and the rest of that production line is approved under that system. If I am wrong then so be it but I would like to know more about the European process to see what is actually true.

 

[Relic shooter]

Many forum members propose that our moderators terminate this pointless pooping competition immediately !!

Like most ML gunsmiths, we all can recall numerous component faults & failures that have surfaced with even upper end
firearm manufacturers.
Few firearms are fault free, we just fix & improve em & move on...

 

[FlinterNick]

I’m not trying to start a fight but I was told by one the importers that Pedersoli only proofs about 1% or less of their muskets and the rest of that production line is approved under that system. If I am wrong then so be it but I would like to know more about the European process to see what is actually true.

Not sure where you heard that, but you can’t get any barrels from Pedersoli unless they’re proofed, even replacement barrels are required to be proofed. If you ask pederosli they will explain it to you, To me that means all barrels are proofed. It’s possible that there are some replacements that are here in the USA from the 1970’s and 80’s before the CIP rules were so strict.

 

[tenngun]

Not sure where you heard that, but you can’t get any barrels from Pedersoli unless they’re proofed, even replacement barrels are required to be proofed. If you ask pederosli they will explain it to you, To me that means all barrels are proofed. It’s possible that there are some replacements that are here in the USA from the 1970’s and 80’s before the CIP rules were so strict.

But folks shoot Rice, Cocerin, green Mountian and house brands like track of the wolf offers that were never proofed

 

[FlinterNick]

But folks shoot Rice, Cocerin, green Mountian and house brands like track of the wolf offers that were never proofed

Yes this is correct, we don’t have proof laws, not sure what that has to do with an Indian barrel failing a proof test. As I’ve said, it’s just one barrel, and most are probably safe to shoot, I’ve said this over and over add-nauseam. The only take away from this failed proof test is quality control which the write of the article described as a lack of information to rely upon. If an American barrel failed a proof test, it is know where it is made, what steel is used and the process it was made with…. You simply do not know that with this gun that failed a proof test, it’s a dead end.

Now in the USA proof testing isn’t required but there are legal standards which can mean unfounded liabilities. For example, if some hack gunsmith decides to stick weld on under lugs to a colerain barrel and it explodes well, he was the last one to work on that barrel, and could pay a heavy price. Some companies in the USA privately proof test, some gun owners have their guns proof tested.

Proof testing will be here soon enough, with all the crazy laws changing in places like NY and CA, i wouldn’t bet its coming soon.

 

[smoothshooter]

You might lose that wager if you challenge the wrong person.

I think Dave Person might agree with me.

 

[sturmkatze]

How long will this circular mess go on. I know, let’s talk about the best way to clean a muzzleloader and the best gun oil.

 

[FlinterNick]

I think Dave Person might agree with me.

Dave might, a barrel maker might not such as Rice or Rayl. As they would say it depends on how they’re made, drilled yes. Steel alloy barrels Drawn over a mandrel by hand, vs. wrought iron barrels forged over a mandrel, doubtful.

LRB might be able to give a good opinion on this topic. A hand forged Wrought iron vs. a hand forged steel Indian made barrel.

 

[Rudyard]

Not More Indian gun bashing ! Endless twadle. Re the Proof observed the crossed Maces V b p c Proof & 'view' IE' examined' are old Birmingham marks . the stuff underneath are current ones if useualy the' Mark' is stamped visable brl & tang the underneath stuff will have the load, bore & a circular date mark how long have you had it ? .The OLD marks are illegal if used in UK but people bought stamps & used them in the US where its just authentic decor . I who has muskets of my make in National museums Happily used an Indian much made up to ,'pass muster' musket & did in my US Reen enacting ' Cobblers Kids are Poorest Shod ' sort of thing .
Rudyard's Take
PS if the Cross Maces are two alike its the proof of the Govt proof house then near the Tower and is for Commercial brls not Govt ones .All of which is' foo fer ah '.unles its old.