Indian Muskets

[zimmerstutzen]

It got me a new barrel assembly. And, yer complaint with TC is???????????

I know at least three people who had warranty claims denied in the past 2 years. They have been denying the claims on the Patriot Pistols for almost 20 years. If they changed their tune, it was in the past few months. They refused to replace my stock a week after purchase back in the early 1970's. It was a kit gun and the fore stock was not milled properly. Barrel channel was too shallow by almost a 1/4 inch and the barrel tenon was not even low enough to reach the hole for the barrel key. If I dug out all the extra wood, the nose cap would not have fit,,,, would have hung below the end of the stock.

 

[Ketchakah]

I suppose the take away is.. the experiences swing a wide arc. Try to deal with a reputable merchant that has been around for a while. Ask them questions and make sure you can return if its not what you were expecting.

I have had very good experience with Loyalist. I have the musket i spoke of, a horse pistol and bronze barrel coach gun. All are excellent pieces and operate without flaw live or blank. I personally would not hesitate to contact them again. But things change over time, so be aware of what you are getting. Thats the hard part.

 

[crankshaft]

I'm thinkin'.....
with so many lowlife lawyers around,
if the Indian bbls had burst,
lawsuits would have forced them out of business by now.

I'm thinkin'...…….

 

[FlinterNick]

Most of the top quality Indian made guns I’ve seen were custom modified, I’ve seen a few bakers with rifled barrels by Ed Rayl and Colerain, I’ve seen many with replaced lock parts too.

So if you’re gona spend 600-700 for an Indian made gun, and then spend another 400-600 for parts and gunsmithing services.. why not just get a custom gun ? A high quality musket or rifle that you’ll be able to reinactor with, target shoot and hunt with few issues other than cleaning.

Right out of the Box, Indian made muskets are very heavy, the locks are terribly designed with soft parts and the barrels often contain most of the issues from off centered borings, to breech plugs being too long.

and the wood just stinks, Teak is not gunstock wood .... try fixing it when it breaks.

Loyalist does a fine job of marketing a good useful reinactors product. However as far as a good quality shooting musket or rifle, Indian guns dont’ compare.... heck I wouldn’t even line them up with the worst Traditions made rifles.

 

[arcticap]

The Muzzle Loader Shop, LTD in Arkansas has a "Loyalist Arms page" that lists many India guns which they say are usually in stock, including some percussion muskets.
Their 2 shops may have limited hours, but they do offer many gun smithing services for muzzle loaders and can drill touch holes for US customers.
Someone on another forum bought a flinter from them and said that they were very happy with it.--->>> https://www.muzzleloadershop.com/factory-guns/loyalist-arms/

 

[FlinterNick]

The Muzzle Loader Shop, LTD in Arkansas has a "Loyalist Arms page" that lists many India guns which they say are usually in stock, including some percussion muskets.
Their 2 shops may have limited hours, but they do offer many gun smithing services for muzzle loaders and can drill touch holes for US customers.
Someone on another forum bought a flinter from them and said that they were very happy with it.--->>> https://www.muzzleloadershop.com/factory-guns/loyalist-arms/

Yes, Loyalist does good custom work. If you send them a kit. Just be prepared for the wait.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

It's obvious that if you make a gun cheap enough, no matter how bad it is, people will line up to buy it and make excuses for all it's faults. I've always been shocked by this but it's the way it is.

 

[tenngun]

It's obvious that if you make a gun cheap enough, no matter how bad it is, people will line up to buy it and make excuses for all it's faults. I've always been shocked by this but it's the way it is.

Some folks by used cars and economy cars some buy new upper tier.

 

[Straekat]

Yes there are people who will buy the cheapest item they can buy. That thinking helps keep Walmart in business. That said, there are people who like the idea that paying huge amounts of money for gold plated toilets, top dollar hand-made British sports cars (had some, the electronics made by Lucas were and are manure) means they have money and that someone carries extra prestige value to ownership.

Price is a reflection of what the perceived value of something is, not necessarily if it does "x" better than "y." It can also be a symbol of contentiousness and someone who is trying to impress others by what his wallet can afford, not necessarily what's in their head. Buy a Lamborghini that's capable of speeds over 200mph, and then try to find a place in the US of A, where you can legally drive it at a speed even half of what it can do. Why buy a Lambo? Some people do it because they can and want to flaunt it. It's their money and I'm not going to tell them there are other vehicles that can get them to work as quickly as the Lambo because they probably don't want to hear it.

Personal choices. Be glad you have them. Life should be as full of them as possible.

 

[tenngun]

Boils down to the whole point. You can get a curry-popper that will look like the gun it’s represented to be. A Bess or a charley or a US musket look pretty fair. It’s not your best choice.
It’s heavy, it’s not got the best fit and finish, and may be bulky. However it will shoot well, and if not abused it will shoot safely.
No one gets as much manure for a traditions or TC that’s no where near as historic as a loyalist arms. It’s affordable to many people.
Some days I eat Mac and cheese with hot dogs and some days I eat steak.

 

[FlinterNick]

It's obvious that if you make a gun cheap enough, no matter how bad it is, people will line up to buy it and make excuses for all it's faults. I've always been shocked by this but it's the way it is.

Definitely ... never ceases to amaze. I saw a guy with a 3rd model Brown Bess once, caliber was around .68, so it was defiantly not bored correctly. He loved the gun because the barrel walls were thick atleast. .098 thick eyeballing it. This consequently made the gun super top heavy and aiming at targets was workout. Then the stock was severely cracked in the breech which made it to the wrist plate, he would have to epoxy that often to keep it together. A well designed musket with a properly tapered large bore barrel will not be super difficult to shoot and the stock should be able to absorb the recoil without breaking in two.

 

[TFoley]

It's too bad they look like a cartoon caricature of the gun they are supposed to represent. They always leave the web between the barrel and ramrod channel monstrously thick which ruins the architecture right off the start. And that polish! Good Lord! I could go on and on but I'll spare you.
And, who do you want to give your money to, some guys in India or some guys in the USA?

Who makes a Brown Bess in the USA?

 

[FlinterNick]

Who makes a Brown Bess in the USA?

You would build it from a kit by Track of the Wolf or The Rifle Shoppe. You can also search out parts randomly at places like Dixie Gun Works, Nurmich Arms etc.

I made a Bess from parts lock was an older Pedersoli Lock, and the barrel was a used retro from the 1960’s, the Brass I had casted from a guy in England EJ Blackley and purchased a stock from Dunlap, I call it .... an American made musket lol.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Who makes a Brown Bess in the USA?

I and other Americans do. 100% American parts made by a 100% American gun maker.
http://www.fowlingguns.com/gunforsale10.html
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/library/317 Fulton Bess?sort=3&page=1
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/library/Pickard Bess?sort=3&page=1

 

[FlinterNick]

I and other Americans do. 100% American parts made by a 100% American gun maker.
http://www.fowlingguns.com/gunforsale10.html
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/library/317 Fulton Bess?sort=3&page=1
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Gunmaker/library/Pickard Bess?sort=3&page=1

Absolutly beautiful Bess, 1740. Nice job on the handrail comb, you don’t get that kinda of quality in any IOndian made gun.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I'm thinkin'.....
with so many lowlife lawyers around,
if the Indian bbls had burst,
lawsuits would have forced them out of business by now.

I'm thinkin'

Ah well there in lies one of the Myths of the American Consumer...,

Folks seem to think that American barrel makers are afraid of being sued out of business, and thus carry insurance, when a lot if not all, are not afraid of a lawsuit and don't carry insurance, because...,

They are situated in states with civil laws that do not allow the plaintiff to go after the "officers of the corporation" if the corporation does not have the assets to meet the dollar amount in a civil judgement. The companies are incorporated, and they "lease" the buildings, land, and machinery from a person, so they only actually own as a corporation, several dozen ( perhaps maybe a hundred or so) barrels in various stages of completion. Sue them, win, and you get a pile of barrels most of which are not yet finished..., the company folds, reincorporates under a new name (same company officers), and returns to business. Gone on Friday, back again on Monday. So the Nicholas J. Newbie Rifle Barrel Company dies, and the Nicholas John Newbie rifle barrel company is born. If it happens again, the procedure is repeated, but the new company is the N. J. Newbie Rifle Barrel Company, and so on and so on...,

So with the venders of the India origin guns, they are the importers, and have very little assets just as the above rifle makers do. So in my case I'd have to sue in Canada, in a Canadian court, since all of my India origin muskets are out of Canada. MVTC or Veteran Arms in America would probably fold, if they didn't convince the court the at fault party was in India in Udaipur or Sikligar, etc. and you'd have to file suit in India, or in Italy if it was a Pedersoli arm that burst.

CVA ordered barrels and rifles for guns to their specs, so that was a different matter, altogether, as they owned the designs as well as importing the parts.
CVA had a voluntary recall, nothing that was decided in court, remember. That was to protect the brand name.

In the case of the fictional barrel company above, the only real repercussion would be if folks spread the word that anything with the "Newbie" name was junk..., but what would stop them from re-incorporation under the name of say.., Mr. Newbie's daughter under her married name, and if Mr. Newbie was no longer one of the corporate officers, how would anybody know the connection?

It's funny too that you read folks who may right something akin to,
"I'd never even be on the range when one o' them Indian guns is being used"..., when if they took a few minutes and looked up barrel failures and cylinder failures on YouTube, they'd fine NONE that are India origin muskets, and at least 13 non-Indian BP guns that exploded from operator error (mostly smokeless powder in a BP gun)

You more than double the gun failures if you throw in modern American made guns, that explode from barrel obstructions or FUBAR handloads...

But they are fine running the risk of some yahoo next to them on the range with that potential accident,...…

LD

 

[Artificer]

I and other Americans do. 100% American parts made by a 100% American gun maker.
http://www.fowlingguns.com/gunforsale10.html

Oh, my!! LOVE the P 1730/P1740 Aprons on that Firelock around the lock and extending down towards the trigger guard. Though these were completely dropped in the P1742 Musket as a cost savings measure, that was an elegant part of the earlier Patterns.

Gus

 

[satwel]

The more I read on the Indian muskets, the more I want one. They seem like a good buy.

I’d like a Brown Bess and maybe also one of the British flintlock military pistols.

But of the importers, like Loyalist Arms etc., I hear some bring in better made guns than the others. So which one of the resellers brings in the best of the lot? Which of these import companies should I buy from?

Based on personal experience and the recommendation of a prominent black powder gunsmith -- Loyalist Arms imports the best Indian repro muskets.

 

[crankshaft]

Ah well there in lies one of the Myths of the American Consumer...,

Folks seem to think that American barrel makers are afraid of being sued out of business, and thus carry insurance, when a lot if not all, are not afraid of a lawsuit and don't carry insurance, because...,

They are situated in states with civil laws that do not allow the plaintiff to go after the "officers of the corporation" if the corporation does not have the assets to meet the dollar amount in a civil judgement. The companies are incorporated, and they "lease" the buildings, land, and machinery from a person, so they only actually own as a corporation, several dozen ( perhaps maybe a hundred or so) barrels in various stages of completion. Sue them, win, and you get a pile of barrels most of which are not yet finished..., the company folds, reincorporates under a new name (same company officers), and returns to business. Gone on Friday, back again on Monday. So the Nicholas J. Newbie Rifle Barrel Company dies, and the Nicholas John Newbie rifle barrel company is born. If it happens again, the procedure is repeated, but the new company is the N. J. Newbie Rifle Barrel Company, and so on and so on...,

So with the venders of the India origin guns, they are the importers, and have very little assets just as the above rifle makers do. So in my case I'd have to sue in Canada, in a Canadian court, since all of my India origin muskets are out of Canada. MVTC or Veteran Arms in America would probably fold, if they didn't convince the court the at fault party was in India in Udaipur or Sikligar, etc. and you'd have to file suit in India, or in Italy if it was a Pedersoli arm that burst.

CVA ordered barrels and rifles for guns to their specs, so that was a different matter, altogether, as they owned the designs as well as importing the parts.
CVA had a voluntary recall, nothing that was decided in court, remember. That was to protect the brand name.

In the case of the fictional barrel company above, the only real repercussion would be if folks spread the word that anything with the "Newbie" name was junk..., but what would stop them from re-incorporation under the name of say.., Mr. Newbie's daughter under her married name, and if Mr. Newbie was no longer one of the corporate officers, how would anybody know the connection?

It's funny too that you read folks who may right something akin to,
"I'd never even be on the range when one o' them Indian guns is being used"..., when if they took a few minutes and looked up barrel failures and cylinder failures on YouTube, they'd fine NONE that are India origin muskets, and at least 13 non-Indian BP guns that exploded from operator error (mostly smokeless powder in a BP gun)

You more than double the gun failures if you throw in modern American made guns, that explode from barrel obstructions or FUBAR handloads...

But they are fine running the risk of some yahoo next to them on the range with that potential accident,...…

LD

You ain't wrong.
Do you know of any USA companies doing such ? ?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I know of at least one big name, but I won't share since I think most of them do so..., and I'm told the now defunct Sharon Barrel Company did not have such protective strategy in place, and got buried as a result, OH and they weren't at fault, but they had some insurance an assets so got targeted... and I am taught that because of what happened to Sharon Barrels is why the others may do what they may do...,

But the barrel companies out there are also as far as I can tell owned by people who take pride in their work and take steps to ensure that nobody gets hurt from a defect with their product. They take pride in their craftsmanship....

LD