Indian Muskets

[tenngun]

Sam Falada managed to blow up a navy arms barrel..... so throw away all them ol navy arms. Ted Kirkland managed to blow up a Didxi gunworks barrel.
If anyone is lucky enough to own back copies of the Buckskin Report put out in the 70s to the 90s by Baird father and son you may have read all these same ideas leveled at CVA
“There is nothing new under the sun” a wise king said that.

 

[Bo T]

You know, there are all kinds of people that declare 12L14 to be unsafe for a ML gun barrel. it's used by Rice, Hoyt, Getz etc. , and yet it's considered the industry norm for custom swamped barrels in the USA. Ever wonder what those India barrels are actually made from? I don't know what they are made from, but if I had to guess I'd say "seamless" tubing. What alloy seamless tubing may be made out of in India I couldn't say.
really makes no difference to me as i'll never own an India made gun.

I don't believe anyone said that you had to go out and buy one. You have made a valid point regarding the quality of the India muzzleloaders.

 

[FlinterNick]

According to the discrimination General’s website, Indian made barrels are made from high carbon seamless steel BS970 alloy. This steel grade is similar to the american 1040 high carbon steel.

So the steel alloys used in the barrel makings are ok for BP smoothbore muskets.

However the issue that is most often found with Indian made muskets is the Breech Plug, the Breech plugs are often too large or too small diameter most commonly the plugs are too long and to add to that complication the muskets are not sold vented. Other issues are how the barrels are bored, Indian manufactures seem to make their barrels thicker and heavier under the impression that a thick heavy barrel won’t explode, a properly tapered barrel from breech to muzzle should be pretty consistent at 4 inch lengths. Their barrels are also sometimes found to be bored off center, Loyalist arms will often sell these muskets listed as ‘unfit for shooting live shot’. The Brown Bess should be around 1.4 breech ending at .880 at the muzzle, some american barrels are larger and thicker to accommodate dovetailing.

Loyalist arms does a good job of verifying which Indian made muskets are suitable for shooting live rounds and blank rounds. However i’ve Never purchased a musket from them, I’ve only spoken to them.

https://www.loyalistarms.ca/specialspage3.html

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

According to the discrimination General’s website, Indian made barrels are made from high carbon seamless steel BS970 alloy. This steel grade is similar to the american 1040 high carbon steel.

So the steel alloys used in the barrel makings are ok for BP smoothbore muskets.

However the issue that is most often found with Indian made muskets is the Breech Plug, the Breech plugs are often too large or too small diameter most commonly the plugs are too long and to add to that complication the muskets are not sold vented. Other issues are how the barrels are bored, Indian manufactures seem to make their barrels thicker and heavier under the impression that a thick heavy barrel won’t explode, a properly tapered barrel from breech to muzzle should be pretty consistent at 4 inch lengths. Their barrels are also sometimes found to be bored off center, Loyalist arms will often sell these muskets listed as ‘unfit for shooting live shot’. The Brown Bess should be around 1.4 breech ending at .880 at the muzzle, some american barrels are larger and thicker to accommodate dovetailing.

Loyalist arms does a good job of verifying which Indian made muskets are suitable for shooting live rounds and blank rounds. However i’ve Never purchased a musket from them, I’ve only spoken to them.

https://www.loyalistarms.ca/specialspage3.html

Now I'm confused. If they are using seamless steel tubing they wouldn't need to be bored since the barrel stock is already bored when they get them. Nor would they be bored off center as they "should" be turned on a lathe to profile the outside
and naturally be centered. None of the barrels I pictured above blew due to breach plug problems, those were catastrophic barrel failures. however, I have seen one of the Indian guns that was very poorly breeched, very shallow threads that were off center in the barrel breeched with a plug that had a slightly different thread pitch that was forced into the barrel and galling the threads. It was taken apart due to the fact there was a lot of gas coming out of the breech when it was fired.
I have had these in my shop and have disassembled the locks which appear to be all individually hand made just like they were hundreds of years ago. There are no interchangeable parts as I don't believe the lock parts are castings, they all seem to be hand forgings. Pretty incredible really. If they had a shop foreman that knew what he was doing quality control would go way up. Also, All of these stocks seem to be "one off", or all stocked by hand with out Dupli carver assist. Some of them have fair inletting, others are a MESS! How about teaching them how to sharpen a chisel! There is a tremendous potential here if you could just get some supervision over the workers to get the proper quality control, they have the skills, but seem to be un aware of what the old guns actually looked like other than pictures. Too bad they can't have an original musket on hand for the employees to refer to while they are working so their product would look something like the gun it's supposed to represent.

 

[FlinterNick]

Now I'm confused. If they are using seamless steel tubing they wouldn't need to be bored since the barrel stock is already bored when they get them. Nor would they be bored off center as they "should" be turned on a lathe to profile the outside
and naturally be centered. None of the barrels I pictured above blew due to breach plug problems, those were catastrophic barrel failures. however, I have seen one of the Indian guns that was very poorly breeched, very shallow threads that were off center in the barrel breeched with a plug that had a slightly different thread pitch that was forced into the barrel and galling the threads. It was taken apart due to the fact there was a lot of gas coming out of the breech when it was fired.
I have had these in my shop and have disassembled the locks which appear to be all individually hand made just like they were hundreds of years ago. There are no interchangeable parts as I don't believe the lock parts are castings, they all seem to be hand forgings. Pretty incredible really. If they had a shop foreman that knew what he was doing quality control would go way up. Also, All of these stocks seem to be "one off", or all stocked by hand with out Dupli carver assist. Some of them have fair inletting, others are a MESS! How about teaching them how to sharpen a chisel! There is a tremendous potential here if you could just get some supervision over the workers to get the proper quality control, they have the skills, but seem to be un aware of what the old guns actually looked like other than pictures. Too bad they can't have an original musket on hand for the employees to refer to while they are working so their product would look something like the gun it's supposed to represent.

From what I’ve read the steel tubing is in stock from and is bored. Even if those steel tubes were sold off as round blanks, they’d still need to be bored to proper caliber and then finished.

Yea, the locks always seem chunky to me. The Brown Bess locks are never authentic on most of their patterns, screw hole alignments are off, the flint cocks are chunky in the upper post and neck and the springs are very thick, then pans are chunky too.

As far as the wood goes, I think Teak or Rosewood is too hard to work with, its dense and tight grained so you’d require extremely sharp tools. Walnut or Maple, that problem is less of an issue and you get cleaner cuts.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I don't think we were talking about savage muzzle loading barrels were we? If so I have severe attention deficit syndrome. The barrel hanging on the gray office wall was an Indian barrel that failed British proof. Interesting that even with blown Indian barrels as proof they are still defended "to the death", perhaps literally?. I encourage you guys to buy all you want, you have the freedom to do so, just don't tell me I have to have one myself.

The barrel that failed British proof in the picture was from an American made custom gun. German salute guns must be proofed every 5 years by a state government laboratory (Beschussampt) and they still have failures. One Indian made gun A brown bess, that exploded was loaded with other than black powder according to the lab report sought by the attorney. ( Same as the many Savage barrels that exploded. ) Given the number of Savage failures, can we conclude that all American made muzzle loaders are potential pipe bombs? Some people's foolishness has them condemning the product of an entire country based upon the failure of a limited few products with no consideration for operator error. So henceforth all American muzzle loaders are cheap crap, because of the number of savages that burst. Do I get your illogic correct?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

So henceforth all American muzzle loaders are cheap crap, because of the number of savages that burst. Do I get your illogic correct?

You forgot all the CVA barrels from Spain that failed which were proofed by a proper, CIP proofing house.

LD

 

[Britsmoothy]

Anyone reading this could consider never going near a muzzleloader!

My opinion is a photograph of a burst barrel without any facts leads to assumptions.

Assuming aside I have a friend that had a bolt from his 6.5 Swede sticking out of his face. I ringed a barrel on a Remington 22. A friend ringed his 410 some how.
I had a primer pocket blow on factory ammo from a 222 and the same from a hornet reload pushing the envelope with blue dot but I ain't never seen a muzzleloader blow up!
I smell.....assuming......pilot error maybe involved with some failures.
I do think some aspects of black powder are overlooked. Black powder working by pushing a load is also dampened in its force. As a blank or not doing any work is an uncontrolled force, not dampened.
I have noticed how much hotter a barrel gets firing a blank compared to shooting a projectile.

B

 

[Rockvillerich]

Summarising.

Indian made muskets are safe and soundly ,if coarsely, made. They are heavy, often not more than close replicas of the originals. They are the cheapest new option. If you have the skills they can be improved in looks and function. They pass European proof house proofing including the severest British and German ones. They tick the necessary boxes.

USA made muskets are safe and soundly made. They are close to the originals in weight and looks. They are vastly more expensive. They should have no need for extra work to enhance them. They do not come with independent proofing evidence. They also tick the aesthetic boxes.

Italian ones come between the two but are now shading up into the USA made price range.

I was reading up on 19th century India and came across an official report which included descriptions and drawings of a Punjabi gun makers shop. There was nothing there which differed in any meaningful way from a rural 19th century gun maker in the USA at the same time. Same barrel making and India made some excellent iron and steel. Same rifling machines. The stock shape differed according to the local style but a worker could walk out of one and into the other and carry on doing the same work to the local style with no training as he would be familiar with the work, tools and materials. Today we revere, rightly, the superb work done in local USA rifle makers workshops. Until the advent of the Minie system a good Kohat rifle or an Algerian Amazigh rifle could out range and often out shoot European factory made military long weapons. It was that which inspired Thouvenin, Minie, Tamisier and Delvigne to develop the 'Minie' rifle bullet. The modern Adam Khel Afridi gun copiers of Darra may look quaint but have CNC controlled machinery in their workshops. The world is more complex and connected than some may think and the long time engineering city of Jaipur in Rajasthan was the home of the Maharajah of Jaipur's manufactury and arsenal. Modern Indian made muskets are from there are founded upon centuries of gun making with the extra benefit of modern steels.

The choice of USA, Italian, Indian or whatever musket is yours. It is your money and your choice but an Indian musket is a viable choice and an economical one. As ever 'you pays yer money and yer takes yer choice'.

I removed and inspected the breach plug from my Indian musket, hardened the barrel pins, epoxied a hickory dowel through the wrist, and filed off about half the wood to get the thing to look something like an early model Bess. A fair amount of work, and it still doesn't look like an original due the the thin butt plate, and stock. That said, for reenactments its perfect. Didn't cost much, and I don't give a crap about dings and whacks. Truth is the worst modern steel is way better than the best original wrapped forged 18th century iron. I own two reworked Italian French pattern muskets that look quite good, but don't work any better as far as going BANG. As far as safety goes, what you do with your musket is much more important than who made it. A properly maintained reproduction that is properly loaded isn't going to explode. Every single blown up gun I've encountered in close to fifty years shooting involved obstructions, multiple charges, loose powder, neglect, abuse, and operator error of some sort. Take that dead horse!

 

[Straekat]

... Their barrels are also sometimes found to be bored off center, Loyalist arms will often sell these muskets listed as ‘unfit for shooting live shot’.

I have a French Napoleonic period Charleville manufactured musket with an off center bore. The barrel has proof marks indicating it was intended for issue and military use.

If the bore is straight, the off-centeredness will affect the point of impact.....and only matters if the musket is aimed at a specific point using a round ball. For reenacting purposes, hitting a target is completely irrelevant.

We've heard that the British military tried instilling aiming at targets during the the mid-18th century. Aiming is possible when you can see your enemy BEFORE several thousand troops in a black powder era battlefield opened fire resulting in visibility dropping to a few feet in front of the front ranks of infantry due to burned black powder smoke. Cannon fire adds even more smoke and obscures visibility even further. When that happens after the first few minutes, aiming is no longer important and rapid massed volleys are.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

From what I’ve read the steel tubing is in stock from and is bored. Even if those steel tubes were sold off as round blanks, they’d still need to be bored to proper caliber and then finished.

Yea, the locks always seem chunky to me. The Brown Bess locks are never authentic on most of their patterns, screw hole alignments are off, the flint cocks are chunky in the upper post and neck and the springs are very thick, then pans are chunky too.

As far as the wood goes, I think Teak or Rosewood is too hard to work with, its dense and tight grained so you’d require extremely sharp tools. Walnut or Maple, that problem is less of an issue and you get cleaner cuts.

Help me understand. If they are making their barrels out of tubing wouldn't they use tubing that was the correct bore size? Also, I have "rebuilt" a couple of these things. The wood is white and incredibly soft. You could nearly inlet the parts just by smashing them against the wood. Probably why there are so many problems with broken stocks. As far as I know Teak and Rosewood are very hard and I believe Rosewood is very expensive. I think they're using some sort of tropical bongo wood for their stocks.

 

[Artificer]

We've heard that the British military tried instilling aiming at targets during the the mid-18th century. Aiming is possible when you can see your enemy BEFORE several thousand troops in a black powder era battlefield opened fire resulting in visibility dropping to a few feet in front of the front ranks of infantry due to burned black powder smoke. Cannon fire adds even more smoke and obscures visibility even further. When that happens after the first few minutes, aiming is no longer important and rapid massed volleys are.

Excellent point about the clouds of black powder smoke negating the best aiming technique. However, Soldiers who were taught and practiced aiming a good deal, would still have been better to use a very fast version of that aiming technique in rapid volley firing, so as to better level their muskets and hit opposing soldiers and not fire over or under opposing soldiers.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

As far as the wood goes, I think Teak or Rosewood is too hard to work with, its dense and tight grained so you’d require extremely sharp tools. Walnut or Maple, that problem is less of an issue and you get cleaner cuts.

I have successfully used the following product as a "base coat" to harden even the butter soft Chinese "Chu" Wood to something close to a gun stock hardness/toughness. Yes, I have used stain over it and then Tru Oil.

https://hdsupplysolutions.com/p/min...58&gclid=CJD3h-a3neECFZLNswodDhsPSA&gclsrc=ds

Gus

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

The barrel that failed British proof in the picture was from an American made custom gun. German salute guns must be proofed every 5 years by a state government laboratory (Beschussampt) and they still have failures. One Indian made gun A brown bess, that exploded was loaded with other than black powder according to the lab report sought by the attorney. ( Same as the many Savage barrels that exploded. ) Given the number of Savage failures, can we conclude that all American made muzzle loaders are potential pipe bombs? Some people's foolishness has them condemning the product of an entire country based upon the failure of a limited few products with no consideration for operator error. So henceforth all American muzzle loaders are cheap crap, because of the number of savages that burst. Do I get your illogic correct?

According to the form that posted that picture the bess barrel was Indian and failed at the British proof house. You'll have to do a Bing search to find it. I found it, I'm sure you can too. If memory serves it may have been gunboards.com
Why are we discussing savage barrels again? And no I don't get your logic. It seems to be "don't pay attention to the blown Indian barrels, look at Savage barrels instead." Hardly makes sense.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I removed and inspected the breach plug from my Indian musket, hardened the barrel pins, epoxied a hickory dowel through the wrist, and filed off about half the wood to get the thing to look something like an early model Bess. A fair amount of work, and it still doesn't look like an original due the the thin butt plate, and stock. That said, for reenactments its perfect. Didn't cost much, and I don't give a crap about dings and whacks. Truth is the worst modern steel is way better than the best original wrapped forged 18th century iron. I own two reworked Italian French pattern muskets that look quite good, but don't work any better as far as going BANG. As far as safety goes, what you do with your musket is much more important than who made it. A properly maintained reproduction that is properly loaded isn't going to explode. Every single blown up gun I've encountered in close to fifty years shooting involved obstructions, multiple charges, loose powder, neglect, abuse, and operator error of some sort. Take that dead horse!

I'm beginning to believe it may be safer to just get a rubber gun to reenact with. You could just run around and say BANG! and be just as happy. Heck, you could take a casting from an original gun and have something that looks far better than an Indian musket, be safer, and not break when you fall on it.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

You sure can tell who has skin in the game. Those with Indian guns stick with them "till death do you part".
To boil it down for me, I just won't spend money on something that has such poor quality no matter how little it costs. I've always been a Colt and S&W man, not a Taurus guy.

 

[Straekat]

I'm beginning to believe it may be safer to just get a rubber gun to reenact with. You could just run around and say BANG! and be just as happy. Heck, you could take a casting from an original gun and have something that looks far better than an Indian musket, be safer, and not break when you fall on it.

The US Military had problems with 1903 Springfield barrels blowing up, and that's with 1920-30's era metals and manufacturing processes. There were far more than one or two exploding barrels. If we follow your logic that exploding barrels are a threat, then no one should ever shoot a 1903 Springfield, and by extension be concerned that other products of US Arsenals during the same period could be dangerous to life and limb.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=551861 (See post 21 for several pictures of burst Springfield barrels and a discussion of the problem.)

 

[Sicilian Hunter]

It’s up to us all. Most of us are middle class but that’s a broad definition.a 100k goes a lot further in Alabama then NYC. 50 k can do real well in small town Arkansas and be pretty low in Ca.
Bob and his wife with grown kids can do a lot better then Joe, wife and three kids on the same income.
It took me about seven months to save for the build I’m doing now, stuffing away a little every pay check. This is an expensive hobby. It’s not worse then many ‘normal’ hobbies but still can be costly . Linen at $20 something a yard, wool nearly double. A correct military set of clothing runs pretty high.
A look on track site you see 5 k guns, true works of art, but out of my price range. The ability to buy a fair gun at $7-800 vs twice that much for an Italian, or seven times that much for a bench copy that’s as close as humanly possible to an original is going to weigh heavy on your choice.
That’s not to say the 5k gun isn’t worth every penny. It is for sure. But we don’t need to say if you can’t afford our best toys your not slowed to play our game.

TennGun,
Extremely well said!
I have been slowly but surely getting back into this lifestyle after a very long hiatus and its not cheap, easy or without frustrations.
One of the biggest stumbling blocks for new folks are the OPINIONATED "old hands" that often have the attitude of "save your money, do your research and come back when you have all the correct clothes, weapons and background to hang with the big dogs..."
I find that attitude not only false but a very lie from their own mouths because I would hazard that isn't the path they themselves took originally.
For myself, I do things wrong first because I am naively motivated. I correct as I go until I get it close enough to right.
I have had a great deal of help on this forum from "old hands" that were confident enough in themselves to pass on their knowledge without that attitude (If they're reading this they know who they are and I salute them!!)
Now, I own an Indian Fusil De Chasse and after just using it to compete with at the Moon of the Crow I can tell you this (not from rumor, from firsthand experience of a Noob apparently too ignorant NOT to wrap his hands around this obviously tainted piece that is not good to enough corrupt the eyes of some of the posters on this thread):
1- If at all possible, handle one in person and pick the best looking/feeling one (my mistake was buying blind).
2- Choose from the purveyors out there who gives you the best vibe ( my experience there was not good).
3- KNOW that these weapons will need work to get them dialed in to where they shoot and fit well, that will take knowledge in trouble shooting weapons.
4- DO NOT MAX CHARGE, go by what standards the purveyor recommends for charges and never exceed that.
5- Buy a new ramrod right away if its wooden as they are flimsy and made out of "rosewood" or teak or something inferior to hickory.
I could carry on further but that is a taste.
What I experienced is that the flint was HUGE and the top jaw of the cock was poorly fitted and didn't go all the down to meet the lower jaw and as a result an enormous flint was issued with the lock (got laughed at for that!!), despite how careful I was my ram rod broke at 8" from the tapered end, my trigger had a long creep and about a 14lb pull.
I was given some expert advice on ow to fix those issues and will continue to use and learn from my Indian musket and call it a "learning" tool because that's what it is.
I only shoot live ammo out of it so I can't speak for blank charges.

The Sicilian

 

[shortstart]

Yes there are people who will buy the cheapest item they can buy. That thinking helps keep Walmart in business. That said, there are people who like the idea that paying huge amounts of money for gold plated toilets, top dollar hand-made British sports cars (had some, the electronics made by Lucas were and are crap) means they have money and that someone carries extra prestige value to ownership.

Price is a reflection of what the perceived value of something is, not necessarily if it does "x" better than "y." It can also be a symbol of contentiousness and someone who is trying to impress others by what his wallet can afford, not necessarily what's in their head. Buy a Lamborghini that's capable of speeds over 200mph, and then try to find a place in the US of A, where you can legally drive it at a speed even half of what it can do. Why buy a Lambo? Some people do it because they can and want to flaunt it. It's their money and I'm not going to tell them there are other vehicles that can get them to work as quickly as the Lambo because they probably don't want to hear it.

Personal choices. Be glad you have them. Life should be as full of them as possible.

Very well said sir!

 

[tenngun]

TennGun,
Extremely well said!
I have been slowly but surely getting back into this lifestyle after a very long hiatus and its not cheap, easy or without frustrations.
One of the biggest stumbling blocks for new folks are the OPINIONATED "old hands" that often have the attitude of "save your money, do your research and come back when you have all the correct clothes, weapons and background to hang with the big dogs..."
I find that attitude not only false but a very lie from their own mouths because I would hazard that isn't the path they themselves took originally.
For myself, I do things wrong first because I am naively motivated. I correct as I go until I get it close enough to right.
I have had a great deal of help on this forum from "old hands" that were confident enough in themselves to pass on their knowledge without that attitude (If they're reading this they know who they are and I salute them!!)
Now, I own an Indian Fusil De Chasse and after just using it to compete with at the Moon of the Crow I can tell you this (not from rumor, from firsthand experience of a Noob apparently too ignorant NOT to wrap his hands around this obviously tainted piece that is not good to enough corrupt the eyes of some of the posters on this thread):
1- If at all possible, handle one in person and pick the best looking/feeling one (my mistake was buying blind).
2- Choose from the purveyors out there who gives you the best vibe ( my experience there was not good).
3- KNOW that these weapons will need work to get them dialed in to where they shoot and fit well, that will take knowledge in trouble shooting weapons.
4- DO NOT MAX CHARGE, go by what standards the purveyor recommends for charges and never exceed that.
5- Buy a new ramrod right away if its wooden as they are flimsy and made out of "rosewood" or teak or something inferior to hickory.
I could carry on further but that is a taste.
What I experienced is that the flint was HUGE and the top jaw of the cock was poorly fitted and didn't go all the down to meet the lower jaw and as a result an enormous flint was issued with the lock (got laughed at for that!!), despite how careful I was my ram rod broke at 8" from the tapered end, my trigger had a long creep and about a 14lb pull.
I was given some expert advice on ow to fix those issues and will continue to use and learn from my Indian musket and call it a "learning" tool because that's what it is.
I only shoot live ammo out of it so I can't speak for blank charges.

The Sicilian

Thumbs up!