Indian Muskets

[tenngun]

You ain't wrong.
Do you know of any USA companies doing such ? ?

I think middlesex village arms is American importer. I’ve read a lot of complaints about their service so I’m not making an endorsement, as I have no experience with them. I love his FAQ page.
I wonder if a lot of military reinactment groups that outlaw Indian guns in their rules.

 

[Rockvillerich]

You would build it from a kit by Track of the Wolf or The Rifle Shoppe. You can also search out parts randomly at places like Dixie Gun Works, Nurmich Arms etc.

I made a Bess from parts lock was an older Pedersoli Lock, and the barrel was a used retro from the 1960’s, the Brass I had casted from a guy in England EJ Blackley and purchased a stock from Dunlap, I call it .... an American made musket lol.

Back then they called what you made a Committee of Safety musket. I've seen them with all sorts of parts, and one with a curly maple stock.

 

[Straekat]

............... Then the stock was severely cracked in the breech which made it to the wrist plate, he would have to epoxy that often to keep it together. A well designed musket with a properly tapered large bore barrel will not be super difficult to shoot and the stock should be able to absorb the recoil without breaking in two.

The wrist area of Brown Bess musket stocks is weak, and more than a few Pedersoli's with European walnut stocks crack and break on muskets. The fact that has and does happen to BB muskets used for reenactments and the type of wood, suggests the problem is with how thin the wood in the area is. The chemical structure of glue or epoxies allows for a quick fix, but a better repair is to dowel the glued-up crack or a countersunk screw that is hidden by a dowel rod cap.

English walnut and European walnut are actually the same species, and the difference between them is the result of growth conditions based on the environments of the British Isles versus the region of origin of the species in south eastern Europe and Anatolia.

Indian made copies using teak have thicker wrist areas, and that may be a good thing. Thinner wrists may "up" the chances of that area breaking.

If someone buys or builds their own custom made BB using "English" walnut, using period dimensions with thin wooden stocks, using it for reenacting purposes carries with it the risk of breaking that thin wrist area. If you want to spend the money to have one built for you, or spend the time building your own, do you want to run the risk of having the stock break the way it does on Pedersoli muskets with thicker wood profiles on a modern made take on the BB stock?

Yes, you can then repair the broken wrist area, and with good fortune, you might not see the repair. If you want a new stock, then it's a custom job, and one that can take a hunk of time/money.

The Indian made clunkers are thick, have lots of excess wood. So far, I know of more than a few Pedersolis that have broken and repaired wrists. I'm not hearing about breakage being as big a problem about Indian muskets so far.

IF, and I repeat the word IF, someone wants an Indian musket, don't do it through the mail. Push vendors selling them to go to events where people can actually inspect them, and the transaction is cash and carry based on handling what you intend to buy. If you buy ANYTHING via the internet/mail-order, you don't know what you'll be getting until you open the box.

Consider for yourself, would you rather use a Indian musket for reenacting or a custom made spot on reproduction, and not have to worry about the off chance the wrist doesn't get broken.

For hunting purposes, I don't mind the chance any custom made pieces of gear I have made get broken, damaged, or need repaired. At reenactments, those same custom pieces of yours that aren't cheap to have made, or make, can get damaged by some klutz next who can't secure his musket in an orderly manner and bangs your thin stock and leaves a gouged area. Or, you trip and fall on it, breaking it on your own. Worse yet, you go visit the vendors and return to find the musket is missing. Yes, things get stolen and thieves are going to target higher value items, not a cheaper Indian p.o.s.

There are many things that are a matter of personal choice. What one person wants may not be acceptable to others. I'm not advocating one or the other when it comes to Indian made, Pedersoli/Mirokus, or custom made BBs, Charlevilles, or other smooth bores. It's a matter of individual decisions each person who wants one, must make on their rather than being told "buy X because whoever thinks it is better.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

More than likely it's poor inletting and fitting at fault for those broken wrists on the Eyetalian Bess's.

 

[TFoley]

Ah, what I meant by my question was about a mass-production Brown Bess, like the Pedersoli, not a kit-built or part-built from a well-known provider of such items. But thank you for your replies.

 

[FlinterNick]

Back then they called what you made a Committee of Safety musket. I've seen them with all sorts of parts, and one with a curly maple stock.

Yup you could call it a commitie of safety musket

The wrist area of Brown Bess musket stocks is weak, and more than a few Pedersoli's with European walnut stocks crack and break on muskets. The fact that has and does happen to BB muskets used for reenactments and the type of wood, suggests the problem is with how thin the wood in the area is. The chemical structure of glue or epoxies allows for a quick fix, but a better repair is to dowel the glued-up crack or a countersunk screw that is hidden by a dowel rod cap.

English walnut and European walnut are actually the same species, and the difference between them is the result of growth conditions based on the environments of the British Isles versus the region of origin of the species in south eastern Europe and Anatolia.

Indian made copies using teak have thicker wrist areas, and that may be a good thing. Thinner wrists may "up" the chances of that area breaking.

If someone buys or builds their own custom made BB using "English" walnut, using period dimensions with thin wooden stocks, using it for reenacting purposes carries with it the risk of breaking that thin wrist area. If you want to spend the money to have one built for you, or spend the time building your own, do you want to run the risk of having the stock break the way it does on Pedersoli muskets with thicker wood profiles on a modern made take on the BB stock?

Yes, you can then repair the broken wrist area, and with good fortune, you might not see the repair. If you want a new stock, then it's a custom job, and one that can take a hunk of time/money.

The Indian made clunkers are thick, have lots of excess wood. So far, I know of more than a few Pedersolis that have broken and repaired wrists. I'm not hearing about breakage being as big a problem about Indian muskets so far.

IF, and I repeat the word IF, someone wants an Indian musket, don't do it through the mail. Push vendors selling them to go to events where people can actually inspect them, and the transaction is cash and carry based on handling what you intend to buy. If you buy ANYTHING via the internet/mail-order, you don't know what you'll be getting until you open the box.

Consider for yourself, would you rather use a Indian musket for reenacting or a custom made spot on reproduction, and not have to worry about the off chance the wrist doesn't get broken.

For hunting purposes, I don't mind the chance any custom made pieces of gear I have made get broken, damaged, or need repaired. At reenactments, those same custom pieces of yours that aren't cheap to have made, or make, can get damaged by some klutz next who can't secure his musket in an orderly manner and bangs your thin stock and leaves a gouged area. Or, you trip and fall on it, breaking it on your own. Worse yet, you go visit the vendors and return to find the musket is missing. Yes, things get stolen and thieves are going to target higher value items, not a cheaper Indian p.o.s.

There are many things that are a matter of personal choice. What one person wants may not be acceptable to others. I'm not advocating one or the other when it comes to Indian made, Pedersoli/Mirokus, or custom made BBs, Charlevilles, or other smooth bores. It's a matter of individual decisions each person who wants one, must make on their rather than being told "buy X because whoever thinks it is better.

I’d have to disagree on the wrist cracking is not a common issue with the modern Brown Bess, if it is its because there’s a flaw in the wood grain that was already there. I think most of the damage to the Brown Bess is around the forestock and lock mortise just from disassembly and pin drifting. While I do agree that the Wrist area is generally weakened by the addition of the wrist plate that is bolted to the trigger guard, a load of 70-90 grains shouldn’t produce a recoil capable of cracking the breech into the wrist. If you drop your gun from 10-20 feet, accdeintally fall on it or swing the butt end and hit something immobile well its not the musket stock issue lol. No musket is truly indestructible.

I’ve seen a few Indian made guns made of Teak and Rosewood that had lots of stock repairs around the lock, and breech area, generally speaking Teak is a very tightly grained wood and Rosewood is almost too hard and too brittle. There’s a logical reason why walnut, cherry and maple was used on most muskets, its because its easier to work with, serviceable and retains strength.

As far as re-enacting goes, I would just use my oldest clunker gun. Like an older used Pedersoli or older used Miruko, not hard to find one of those for 500-700$.

Custom guns don’t have to break the bank too. I’ve had mine assembled in the white for around $800, and I finished the stock.

You’re also not talking about a huge price variance between an Indian Gun and a Pedersoli gun, the difference is maybe $300-500 depending where you get it from. You can get them in kit form for about $900. Custom gun kits are advanced, you’re either ready for that or your not. It took me almost 2 years to complete a Brown Bess.

 

[Stantheman86]

This topic has been beaten to death . It's a known fact that reenactors are terrible at weapons maintenance and the chambers of their muskets (which only fire blanks) are often filled with concrete like residue. When you shoot BP and never clean eventually theres gonna be steel fatigue.

Bear in mind original Enfield and other muskets and rifles had barrels that were pretty much Iron. Unless the Indian gun makers are using Iron then I guarantee the steel they are using is better than the original material.

Meanwhile half the people bashing Indian muskets probably own 1960s era Spanish made pistols made of steel you can dent with a bump on a range table or CVAs made from extruded steel with lock parts marginally above pot metal status.

Also everyone went nutty over those Napalese made P53s and people actually shoot those, but theres internet lore about Indian muskets being unsafe.

 

[FlinterNick]

This topic has been beaten to death . It's a known fact that reenactors are terrible at weapons maintenance and the chambers of their muskets (which only fire blanks) are often filled with concrete like residue. When you shoot BP and never clean eventually theres gonna be steel fatigue.

Bear in mind original Enfield and other muskets and rifles had barrels that were pretty much Iron. Unless the Indian gun makers are using Iron then I guarantee the steel they are using is better than the original material.

Meanwhile half the people bashing Indian muskets probably own 1960s era Spanish made pistols made of steel you can dent with a bump on a range table or CVAs made from extruded steel with lock parts marginally above pot metal status.

Also everyone went nutty over those Napalese made P53s and people actually shoot those, but theres internet lore about Indian muskets being unsafe.

There are in fact some Indian gunmakers that make barrels from folded steel, some barrels still have the folding scar beneath the barrel. I think most are now making them with bored steel tubing. The biggest issue with the Indian barrels I’ve seen is how the breech plugs are installed, many are installed either too shallow or too deep. The barrels are also often made much thicker and heavier, which is fine for some people but for actual shooting it can make shouldering the gun difficult. I know a few gunsmiths who have pledged that Indian barrels are not straight enough too.

Yes they used wrought Iron for 18th century barrels, don’t forget the black powder was also not very good quality too. Everything is relevant in its time. French Muskets did use stronger steel on their muskets after 1763, most French barrels were made with more expensive steel alloys than their British counter parts.

Loyalist arms is the only Indian Gun Dealer I’d trust, they wont’ sell a gun that can’t shoot.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

About the law suits. I took part in more than a few products liability suits over my 40 years practicing law. The big case was against International Harvester for a stupid transmission design change. The results of my case and the dozens of other injury cases pending caused them to redesign their entire line of medium tractors. ie made them safer. I had an acid pump negligent design case and the fool engineer who wrote the specs for the Chinese manufacturer put in standard v threads on one side of a coupling and acme threads on the other side. Just by chance the parts would screw together, but when acid came into contact with residual water (from rinsing out the unit) , the heat caused the plastic to warm and soften just enough for the fitting to blow and spray acid everywhere. In an exercise bike case, the post for the seat was rough cut with a power hack saw and then a plastic seat with integral socket was placed over the post. The slight rocking of the seat against the rough edge of the post slowly cut the the seat until it gave way. (And that is how the angel came to be sitting on top the .....) In a hunting tree stand case the manufacturer cut costs by 22 cents by using a plastic coated knob that kept the platform from falling, instead of a solid metal knob as used previously. When the plastic aged and cracked from temperatures and UV light, the metal inside was too small and slipped through the retainer allowing the platform of the tree stand to drop like a trap door. The semi auto pistol maker tried to use an aluminum slide and it was machined too thin to hold. I also worked on a cross bow case in which the string cut off several finger tips. it was a new design and the fore stock was not "fish bellied" so that fingers would be out of the way of the string. In fact the maker switched away from the old stock design to save a few dimes per unit on wood and packaging. I had other cases as well. In the case of the semi auto pistol, the maker declared bankruptcy and the family behind it, was back in business under another corporate name within weeks. The NEW pistols had parts interchangeable with the old ones, except for the new slides, which were much beefier. The acid pump company was a major industrial supply outfit and stayed in business, but it cost them dearly. International Harvester sold or merged with other ag companies. The exercise bike company went under and stuck montgomery wards and two other stores with paying for some horrible injuries. The Cross bow company issued a recall and then recalled the recall and is still in business. We all know Lyman recently issued a recall.

Every few months I go on the Federal Courts and some state court computers and check for products liability cases pending against gun manufacturers in Federal courts. It is surprising that some companies do not show up more and some barely show up at all. When I can, I read the expert reports. I have seen some remarkable science fiction in the expert reports too. I have also seen where muzzle loader barrels failed and there was evidence that the gun parts were scrubbed to remove all residue. One case I saw, (happened near Allentown PA 40 years ago. A fellow claimed he was struck by a bullet from a faulty gun. The "bullet" was a still loaded cartridge. (appeared to be a 38 or 357.) The judge actually referred the case to the DA for prosecution of the Plaintiff.

 

[crankshaft]

Thank you. This is stuff we needed.

 

[Artificer]

About the law suits. I took part in more than a few products liability suits over my 40 years practicing law.....

Very interesting post. Thank you.

Gus

 

[RAEDWALD]

Summarising.

Indian made muskets are safe and soundly ,if coarsely, made. They are heavy, often not more than close replicas of the originals. They are the cheapest new option. If you have the skills they can be improved in looks and function. They pass European proof house proofing including the severest British and German ones. They tick the necessary boxes.

USA made muskets are safe and soundly made. They are close to the originals in weight and looks. They are vastly more expensive. They should have no need for extra work to enhance them. They do not come with independent proofing evidence. They also tick the aesthetic boxes.

Italian ones come between the two but are now shading up into the USA made price range.

I was reading up on 19th century India and came across an official report which included descriptions and drawings of a Punjabi gun makers shop. There was nothing there which differed in any meaningful way from a rural 19th century gun maker in the USA at the same time. Same barrel making and India made some excellent iron and steel. Same rifling machines. The stock shape differed according to the local style but a worker could walk out of one and into the other and carry on doing the same work to the local style with no training as he would be familiar with the work, tools and materials. Today we revere, rightly, the superb work done in local USA rifle makers workshops. Until the advent of the Minie system a good Kohat rifle or an Algerian Amazigh rifle could out range and often out shoot European factory made military long weapons. It was that which inspired Thouvenin, Minie, Tamisier and Delvigne to develop the 'Minie' rifle bullet. The modern Adam Khel Afridi gun copiers of Darra may look quaint but have CNC controlled machinery in their workshops. The world is more complex and connected than some may think and the long time engineering city of Jaipur in Rajasthan was the home of the Maharajah of Jaipur's manufactury and arsenal. Modern Indian made muskets are from there are founded upon centuries of gun making with the extra benefit of modern steels.

The choice of USA, Italian, Indian or whatever musket is yours. It is your money and your choice but an Indian musket is a viable choice and an economical one. As ever 'you pays yer money and yer takes yer choice'.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

did a quick search, Here are some nice Indian barrels.

 

[Trot]

One more,

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Why did you not do a quick search and post one of many dozen pictures of failed savage muzzle loader barrels? You have supplied pictures, what evidence is there that these are Indian Barrels or even which of the several Indian makers. How do we know they are not Dennix guns? The barrel hanging on the gray material office wall, I have seen described as a failed US made custom trade gun barrel at one of the Birmingham Proof Houses over at another forum. The breech has that strange band around it behind the touch hole.

 

[Stantheman86]

I found 0 sources for current production US made military style rifles or muskets?

Unless you mean rebored originals or the ones made in the 1960's using Springfield stocks and locks but a new made barrel (Steve Yeck?)

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Pictures of burst guns, by themselves, prove exactly nothing other than the gun burst. They provide no insight into why they burst. What the gun neglected? Was it overcharged? Was the bore obstructed? Was it loaded with smokeless powder? Etc., etc.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Why did you not do a quick search and post one of many dozen pictures of failed savage muzzle loader barrels? You have supplied pictures, what evidence is there that these are Indian Barrels or even which of the several Indian makers. How do we know they are not Dennix guns? The barrel hanging on the gray material office wall, I have seen described as a failed US made custom trade gun barrel at one of the Birmingham Proof Houses over at another forum. The breech has that strange band around it behind the touch hole.

I don't think we were talking about savage muzzle loading barrels were we? If so I have severe attention deficit syndrome. The barrel hanging on the gray office wall was an Indian barrel that failed British proof. Interesting that even with blown Indian barrels as proof they are still defended "to the death", perhaps literally?. I encourage you guys to buy all you want, you have the freedom to do so, just don't tell me I have to have one myself.

 

[RAEDWALD]

I don't think we were talking about savage muzzle loading barrels were we? If so I have severe attention deficit syndrome. The barrel hanging on the gray office wall was an Indian barrel that failed British proof. Interesting that even with blown Indian barrels as proof they are still defended "to the death", perhaps literally?. I encourage you guys to buy all you want, you have the freedom to do so, just don't tell me I have to have one myself.

Is that not the purpose of proofing? The Germans do it 5 times I am told.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

You know, there are all kinds of people that declare 12L14 to be unsafe for a ML gun barrel. it's used by Rice, Hoyt, Getz etc. , and yet it's considered the industry norm for custom swamped barrels in the USA. Ever wonder what those India barrels are actually made from? I don't know what they are made from, but if I had to guess I'd say "seamless" tubing. What alloy seamless tubing may be made out of in India I couldn't say.
really makes no difference to me as i'll never own an India made gun.