Indian Muskets

[TheTyler7011]

Recently just read a forum post here and tons of people are trashing on Indian guns.

Personally, l don’t understand lt. Their ls no way muskets that were hand made 250 years ago are “better” or higher quality than Indian reproductions today. l got a Brown Bess from VeteranArms and lt ls awesome. Does everything l need lt to do. For anyone out their contemplating lt, don’t spend over a thousand dollars on a reproduction musket. You don’t need lt. l can not say anything about Indian manufactures other than VeteranArms because they’re the only ones lve used. But VA muskets are great.

My rant has ended.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Modern metallurgy may be better (if used) but the skills were better when the smith made one rifle a month. Besses were different. They were mass produced for a price point. But still very well made.

They didn't use a wire wheel to remove machining marks and polish the lines to death, the wood was closer fit and trimmed sleek, and their name was on the product so it mattered for folks whose life depended on the work. Would you spend three month's of your income on an Indian musket?

 

[tenngun]

You get what you pay for. India has a long history of metal working often under very primitive conditions. They turned out some fine swords and guns over the years. A curry poper ain’t their best work, but they are about half the price. The barrels will tolerate any reasonable charge. All and all they are safer then originals and compare with European production guns of the 70s.
I had an unfounded prejudice against them. The more I learn about them the more my attitude has softened.
For military reinactors they make a lot of sense. For some one who just wants a Bess or an FDC and isn’t going to get in to the weeds, for some one whose economics make $700 doable by $15-2000 not they again make sense. Just don’t expect a Ugo to be a Caddie.
Just buy from some one who has drilled a touch hole and not a gun advertised as non shooting.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I have two muskets made by Loyalist Arms. These are sturdy guns that function well and have proven to be reliable and safe. The barrel is thicker and the stock is heavier than an original on my Long Land Pattern Bess. I am satisfied that it is safe to shoot full power round ball loads. I do not hesitate to recommend Loyalist Arms.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

It's too bad they look like a cartoon caricature of the gun they are supposed to represent. They always leave the web between the barrel and ramrod channel monstrously thick which ruins the architecture right off the start. And that polish! Good Lord! I could go on and on but I'll spare you.
And, who do you want to give your money to, some guys in India or some guys in the USA?

 

[crankshaft]

You get what you pay for. India has a long history of metal working often under very primitive conditions. The barrels will tolerate any reasonable charge.
All and all they are safer then originals and compare with European production guns of the 70s.
I had an unfounded prejudice against them. The more I learn about them the more my attitude has softened.

Just buy from some one who has drilled a touch hole and not a gun advertised as non shooting.

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You mean a factory drilled hole, not one drilled by a previous owner, which may not be in the best location? ? Factory drilled means it was proofed..

 

[Rifleman1776]

Personally, l don’t understand lt.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be anywhere in the vicinity of someone shooting an India made gun of any type. Products from India are often of very poor quality. A friend had a tractor dealership. He tried selling a line of India made tractors. But they were loaded with defects including castings with voids that let oil run out. They were shipped from the factory that way. I have seen documentaries on working conditions in various India factories, they are horrible, as bad, or worse than the Nazi concentration camps were. And the use children who are virtually sold by their parents for small amounts of money, like $25.00. Many die in very substandard working and living conditions. Several years ago one boy, about 12 years old, started a revolt. He was just beginning to get international recognition when he was murdered and his body left in an alley. Buy India made? Not me, I wouldn't even want to touch one much less shoot it.

 

[crankshaft]

Personally, I wouldn't want to be anywhere in the vicinity of someone shooting an India made gun of any type. Products from India are often of very poor quality. A friend had a tractor dealership. He tried selling a line of India made tractors. But they were loaded with defects including castings with voids that let oil run out. They were shipped from the factory that way. I have seen documentaries on working conditions in various India factories, they are horrible, as bad, or worse than the Nazi concentration camps were. And the use children who are virtually sold by their parents for small amounts of money, like $25.00. Many die in very substandard working and living conditions. Several years ago one boy, about 12 years old, started a revolt. He was just beginning to get international recognition when he was murdered and his body left in an alley. Buy India made? Not me, I wouldn't even want to touch one much less shoot it.

I have been on the fence about buying one of these muskets.

Please document actual cases of
India made musket barrels bursting.
Thank you.

 

[Melnic]

I researched this alot before ordering something from both Veteran Arms and Loyalist Arms.
Never found anything that was documented real. I think the only thing I found was someone trying to use a NON firing replica that he converted himself.
I will say that you should clean up the barrel and toss a light down to inspect before doing your own proofing or your first test fire.
I only have about a couple dozen shots through my Veteran Arms Charleville and non yet on a Loyalist Brown Bess.
I happen to have a bore scope to inspect ANY new muzzle loader I get. Any issues, call the vendor.
Just know that these places don't proof the barrels and you need to be comfortable with that or proof it yourself or get someone else to do it. If you read up on proofing that is done on the imported barrels, you may find that it is not what you think.
Veteran arms ships the gun with instructions.
Loyalist will ship with a ball and a fuse so you can do your own proofing after removing the barrel.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Personally, I wouldn't want to be anywhere in the vicinity of someone shooting an India made gun of any type. Products from India are often of very poor quality. A friend had a tractor dealership. He tried selling a line of India made tractors. But they were loaded with defects including castings with voids that let oil run out. They were shipped from the factory that way. I have seen documentaries on working conditions in various India factories, they are horrible, as bad, or worse than the Nazi concentration camps were. And the use children who are virtually sold by their parents for small amounts of money, like $25.00. Many die in very substandard working and living conditions. Several years ago one boy, about 12 years old, started a revolt. He was just beginning to get international recognition when he was murdered and his body left in an alley. Buy India made? Not me, I wouldn't even want to touch one much less shoot it.

Of course that never happened in Britain or America did it

 

[Grenadier1758]

Loyalist Arms muskets have passed proof testing in England, Italy and Germany. There is one case of a burst musket and the metallurgy of the barrel was tested for flaws. The steel used for the barrel was determined to be suitable for gun barrels. There was a build up of material in the bore due to perhaps fouling build up that may have presented as an obstruction to result in the burst barrel.

That particular musket was used for reenacting and blank loads were fired regularly. At the event the musket passed superficial inspection such as hold on half cock, hammer stall and flash guard, and the ramrod test verified there was no load in the gun. After a few shots of blank cartridges, the barrel burst about 1/3 of the way from the breech.

The musket was submitted to the HP White Laboratory for metallurgical analysis. The findings of the HP White report are that the steel used was not defective and the musket was not defective. A specific cause was not determined. It was stated that the burst was consistent with an obstruction in the bore. Where the fracture occurred there was a bulge in the barrel and a grayish residue was observed. See the attached HP White report.


Note: US made firearms are not subjected to proof testing. US barrels blow up and that is one of the reasons that one barrel manufacturer ceased production after one of their barrels blew up. It was believed that smokeless powder was involved, but not proven.

 

[PluggedNickel]

I hold no disdain for India made guns. I don’t own one, but don’t put them down. See Geo John’s great article n tuning his.
http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Musketoon/Musketoon1777Mobile.html

 

[Straekat]

The musket was submitted to the HP White Laboratory for metallurgical analysis. The findings of the HP White report are that the steel used was not defective and the musket was not defective. A specific cause was not determined. It was stated that the burst was consistent with an obstruction in the bore. Where the fracture occurred there was a bulge in the barrel and a grayish residue was observed. See the attached HP White report.


Note: US made firearms are not subjected to proof testing. US barrels blow up and that is one of the reasons that one barrel manufacturer ceased production after one of their barrels blew up. It was believed that smokeless powder was involved, but not proven.

The lab ran a metallurgical analysis, and there was no mention of a chemical analysis of the powder residue. A chemical analysis could have identified the type of powder used, and that might have settled the matter beyond doubt in this case.

 

[crankshaft]

If I was dumb snuff to blow up a barrel with smokeless, I would scrub the heck out of it to remove residue evidence, if still alive.

 

[crankshaft]

BTW.....American made rifles have blown up.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Of course that never happened in Britain or America did it

Past tense. India is still doing it and does not seem to be cleaning up it's act.

 

[Artificer]

The musket was submitted to the HP White Laboratory for metallurgical analysis. The findings of the HP White report are that the steel used was not defective and the musket was not defective. A specific cause was not determined. It was stated that the burst was consistent with an obstruction in the bore. Where the fracture occurred there was a bulge in the barrel and a grayish residue was observed. See the attached HP White report.

I know from much personal experience with the folks at HP White Laboratory, that they are the premier firearms analysis laboratory in the U.S., so I enjoyed reading their findings. Thank you.

It seems to me from reading their report, that the identity of the grayish substance was really not germane to the investigation, even if it had been smokeless powder. It was the evidence of the bore obstruction that they determined caused the barrel failure.

Gus

 

[Trot]

There have been 5 or 6 verified barrel failures on Indian made guns. I saved the information on all of them when I was thinking about buying one. Unfortunately I no longer have the details. I know there was the Brown Bess pictured above, one flint pistol, a P53 Enfield and a Lorenz musket. There were a couple others but I don't remember exactly what. I also found one Italian made Enfield that had a barrel failure. Now user error may have played a part in at least some of them but I can't say for sure. I just decided against getting one at that time.

 

[tenngun]

Brandon F does you tube vids on eighteenth century British Army. His work is impressive, and very entertaining. He did one on poor care that some military reenactores give some of their guns.
Reading about old military muskets The US army talked about some God-awful charges tested in old barrels and the barrel stood it. Dixie gunworks and Sam Falada both tested guns with very ridiculous charges. And guns held as long as the barrel did not have an obstruction in it. We read of trade fusils that burst in use, but they were prodded in Englis testing houses before sent to America. I don’t doubt failure was secondary to poor care.
I don’t doubt that the failures attributed to India made guns are caused by misuse and poor care.
If you take a Rice or green mountain barrel, shoot it leave it to rust, misload it, it will fail.

 

[Trot]

Two of the guns I had record of were brand new. Again user error could have come into play, but it was not from failure to clean or maintain properly.