Indian Muskets

[Rudyard]

Rhodesia good country gone to pack. But you would be into the Shangani Patrol' Euwart Grogan and all the earlier history from the first Cape Colonly onwards , Theres a lot of great adventure stories . I allways think the Wild west was tiddleywinks compared to the stuff the Boers had to deal with . But its been so un PC, rarely a subject of film, no Hollywood, so few have much understanding of its rich history . I worked in Zululand building a railway line not quite like Patterson in Tsavo. But one site Mile 90 was bang on the White Umfalozi River game reserve trees broken by Elephants polished smooth by Rhino scratching there iches . . Lions seen if you went to Lashazarsa or Empangeni for supplies . The crew singing as we drove up from mile 38 to set up the camp magic stuff really . Regards Rudyard (Who oddly spent most of his time in Africa) .I was told in Bullawayo that the long established hardware store was once visited by Kipling who wanted to buy a bicycle on terms. But the shop keepers wern't too keen on this so told him" Could he get someone to vouch for him ? " He brought back Cecil Rhodes !. More Regards Rudyard

 

[smoothshooter]

Of course that never happened in Britain or America did it

Not in the last 75 years.

 

[Stantheman86]

I have an Indian made P53 on layaway with Middlesex Village , and I'm trying to get Loyalist Arms to make me a P59. The .58 smoothbore should be a fun piece with paper cartridges made with .530 round balls. The .65 P59 I want just because I have an interest in the Colonial India period.

I feel ok with buying Indian made British muskets, somehow it feels more "right" than an Indian made smoothbore Lorenz "rifle". I know its apples and oranges but I have Indian made "unmentionable " Enfields that are perfectly fine.

 

[Rudyard]

The India service smooth bore Enfield was & is a very good shooting gun. It was still being made new in India FOR the Indian market in the 70s , I have just sent a letter to Loyalist arms I know they are a most conscientious company I have known them for many years , So your order should be right up their alley . The unmentionables at least pre 47 where good. Oh I inadvertainly wrote of' Royalist' Arms in my earlier post, my error Im'e getting old ! Rudyard

 

[Stantheman86]

They make the Cavalry Carbine in .65 with the right "block sight" so I asked them to simply have their Indian gunmaker drill the bore to .65 on their P53 barrel and put the block sight from the carbine on it.

 

[Stantheman86]

My YouTube video of me surviving the opening shots with my Indian made Enfield

In all seriousness it's actually pretty well made for a $500 musket , which really isn't all that "cheap" considering you can turn up a used Armi Sport from a disinterested reenactor for that if you really look good.

Hit where I pointed it , went bang every time , uses common as dirt .530 round ball. No complaints, it will be something to bring to the range when it's kinda rainy out and I feel like bringing a front stuffer along.

 

[Stantheman86]

Bear in mind most of the "finish work" is done by the individual vendor. And the Indian factories may make changes with each "batch" of muskets.

The picture showed a traditional, screwed on rear sight but I received this, looks like a sight was welded or brazed on and then the welds "blended" in to the barrel tube.

It's just how they decided to do this particular batch.

Makes no difference to me, it gives it a different look.

If the "fine work" was cleaned up a bit like the lock engraving, muzzle crown, rear sight, etc it would be hard to distinguish this from an Italian repro.

People ask why they don't rifle these, then the cost would go up and people would just buy Italians.

 

[FlinterNick]

Bear in mind most of the "finish work" is done by the individual vendor. And the Indian factories may make changes with each "batch" of muskets.

The picture showed a traditional, screwed on rear sight but I received this, looks like a sight was welded or brazed on and then the welds "blended" in to the barrel tube.

It's just how they decided to do this particular batch.

Makes no difference to me, it gives it a different look.

If the "fine work" was cleaned up a bit like the lock engraving, muzzle crown, rear sight, etc it would be hard to distinguish this from an Italian repro.

People ask why they don't rifle these, then the cost would go up and people would just buy Italians.

The Indian manufactures don't rifle their guns because of a few reasons.

the first being Indian Law; Indian Gun Laws are strict, rifling is prohibited on many of these guns, which is another reason why the touch holes are not drilled until they get to the distributors in Europe, Canada or the USA.

Another reason why these guns are not rifled is because of the technical challenges of rifling. Rifling is a very unique technology which requires skill, expensive equipment and precision, Rifling is a feature that Indian gun makers are just not up for in regards to gun making integrity.

Most Indian made musket barrels are made with cold rolled DOM high carbon steel; not a high quality gun barrel in my opinion, they make it sound like its high quality but the entire barrel tube preparation process skips many features of European and American gun makers.

Lastly, Indian smoothbore gun barres are simply.... poorer quality, I've worked on a few that were not tapered or drilled correctly. I've seen breeches with 1/4 the barrel thickness on one side and the other with 1/3.. NOT COOL ! Loyalist Arms is the only Indian gun distributor I would trust, they'll let you know if your gun is good for shooting ball or just blanks.

Their breech plugs are often too long or too short with messy and mangled threading on either the plug or the barrel.

I've seen dovetailed underlugs that were too deep and sights that were off center.

In the end ... you get what you pay for, a cheaper Indian gun is nothing more than a cheap Indian made gun. Some are great, no doubt.

Personally if I go the route of a rifled gun, I would never look further than a custom made barrel, the USA has many excellent barrel makers. Pedersoli guns are very good when it comes to rifled guns too, costly yes, but high quality.

 

[Stantheman86]

I'm in the process of trying to get Loyalist Arms to have a P59 .65 Smoothbore "post Mutiny musket" made for me, because I just think they're neat.

If I wasn't a collector of oddball stuff I wouldn't bother with these Indian muskets but putting one on layaway with Middlesex Village was an impulse buy and I figured I'd see what I got.

Now, the article I read about the guy shooting the Nepalese made P53 with Minie balls and a full charge of 80 gr , he , quote "decided to retire the old piece when the hammer started blowing back" ......shooting a 150+ year old Enfield , that was made in Nepal and stored in a palace basement for 100 years definitely takes a bigger set than I've got

 

[FlinterNick]

I'm in the process of trying to get Loyalist Arms to have a P59 .65 Smoothbore "post Mutiny musket" made for me, because I just think they're neat.

If I wasn't a collector of oddball stuff I wouldn't bother with these Indian muskets but putting one on layaway with Middlesex Village was an impulse buy and I figured I'd see what I got.

Now, the article I read about the guy shooting the Nepalese made P53 with Minie balls and a full charge of 80 gr , he , quote "decided to retire the old piece when the hammer started blowing back" ......shooting a 150+ year old Enfield , that was made in Nepal and stored in a palace basement for 100 years definitely takes a bigger set than I've got

The best percussion smoothbore I've ever shot was the 1842 Springfield; most are Italian made but you can gather plenty of parts in the USA and get a nice barrel by Bobby Hoyt or Whiteacre. Best part about those guns is if you rifle them with the standard 3 or 4 groove, you can shot .678 ball or conical shot, but definitely the best smoothbore I've ever shot.

 

[Stantheman86]

I'd like to get both the '42's made by Armi Sport , my 1816 Springfield percussion conversion by Pedersoli has been top notch. If Pedersoli made a correct rifled and sighted 1816 , they'd sell a ton of them.

I'm not an accuracy freak, I have a boatload of fun popping off .648 roundballs in paper cartridges through it , hitting the target at 100 most of the time is good enough for me.

 

[Rockvillerich]

The Indian manufactures don't rifle their guns because of a few reasons.

the first being Indian Law; Indian Gun Laws are strict, rifling is prohibited on many of these guns, which is another reason why the touch holes are not drilled until they get to the distributors in Europe, Canada or the USA.

Another reason why these guns are not rifled is because of the technical challenges of rifling. Rifling is a very unique technology which requires skill, expensive equipment and precision, Rifling is a feature that Indian gun makers are just not up for in regards to gun making integrity.

Most Indian made musket barrels are made with cold rolled DOM high carbon steel; not a high quality gun barrel in my opinion, they make it sound like its high quality but the entire barrel tube preparation process skips many features of European and American gun makers.

Lastly, Indian smoothbore gun barres are simply.... poorer quality, I've worked on a few that were not tapered or drilled correctly. I've seen breeches with 1/4 the barrel thickness on one side and the other with 1/3.. NOT COOL ! Loyalist Arms is the only Indian gun distributor I would trust, they'll let you know if your gun is good for shooting ball or just blanks.

Their breech plugs are often too long or too short with messy and mangled threading on either the plug or the barrel.
I've seen dovetailed underlugs that were too deep and sights that were off center.

In the end ... you get what you pay for, a cheaper Indian gun is nothing more than a cheap Indian made gun. Some are great, no doubt.

Personally if I go the route of a rifled gun, I would never look further than a custom made barrel, the USA has many excellent barrel makers. Pedersoli guns are very good when it comes to rifled guns too, costly yes, but high quality.

The Indian manufactures don't rifle their guns because of a few reasons.

the first being Indian Law; Indian Gun Laws are strict, rifling is prohibited on many of these guns, which is another reason why the touch holes are not drilled until they get to the distributors in Europe, Canada or the USA.

Another reason why these guns are not rifled is because of the technical challenges of rifling. Rifling is a very unique technology which requires skill, expensive equipment and precision, Rifling is a feature that Indian gun makers are just not up for in regards to gun making integrity.

Most Indian made musket barrels are made with cold rolled DOM high carbon steel; not a high quality gun barrel in my opinion, they make it sound like its high quality but the entire barrel tube preparation process skips many features of European and American gun makers.

Lastly, Indian smoothbore gun barres are simply.... poorer quality, I've worked on a few that were not tapered or drilled correctly. I've seen breeches with 1/4 the barrel thickness on one side and the other with 1/3.. NOT COOL ! Loyalist Arms is the only Indian gun distributor I would trust, they'll let you know if your gun is good for shooting ball or just blanks.

Their breech plugs are often too long or too short with messy and mangled threading on either the plug or the barrel.

I've seen dovetailed underlugs that were too deep and sights that were off center.

In the end ... you get what you pay for, a cheaper Indian gun is nothing more than a cheap Indian made gun. Some are great, no doubt.

Personally if I go the route of a rifled gun, I would never look further than a custom made barrel, the USA has many excellent barrel makers. Pedersoli guns are very good when it comes to rifled guns too, costly yes, but high quality.

Indian guns are not at all consistent, which is a problem, and most of the potential safety issues only show up if/when the gun is taken apart, so buying one is definitely a crap game of sorts. The only advantage of a smooth bore gun that I can think of, other than cost, is the ease of cleaning. If you're only shooting light to moderate blank loads, a properly inspected Indian gun would probably be an okay choice, but unless you're able and willing to do this work yourself the Indian gun isn't really going to save you nearly as much money. I pulled the breach plug, hardened some parts, and added a hickory dowel through the wrist of an Indian gun that was going to use for reenacting, and I'd gone through a half dozen guns to select the best one out of the batch, and yes, there was a rather obvious range of quality within the group. Buying from a trusted vendor is a probably a bigger deal here than the price.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The only advantage of a smooth bore gun that I can think of, other than cost, is the ease of cleaning

Unless of course the gun is a replica OF a smoothbore, like a LLP Bess.

LD

 

[Straekat]

The only advantage of a smooth bore gun that I can think of, other than cost, is the ease of cleaning. .

Smoothies are shotguns, and with a large bore can throw a lot of lead, small chunks of rock, broken glass, rock-salt and other stuff. They can also take more than one caliber and the simultaneous use of several at the same time. At close quarters there are definite advantages to a big smooth bore....shotgun.

 

[Stantheman86]

I think the "chunks of rock, silverware, glass and scrap metal" thing was from specialized naval blunder busses made just for doing that crap.

You can use any caliber below the size of the bore, in a pinch, sure I could drop 2 or 3 .490 rounds balls into my 1816 smoothbore. Or Buck and Ball.

This is why some units refused to give up their .69 Smoothbore muskets during the Civil War, buck and ball was such a "force multiplier " and they figured theyd be giving something up with a Minie rifle .

 

[tenngun]

Unless of course the gun is a replica OF a smoothbore, like a LLP Bess.

LD

I don’t know if they are easier to clean, but lots of fun to shoot.
The best part about them is the fact if you hit you get to say ‘yeah you got to learn your gun and play with it till you got the best for it.... hours and hours on the range’
If you miss you get to say ‘well it is a smoothie after all, more of an art and luck then a skill. And even at best they still shoot where they want.

 

[Stantheman86]

I have both muzzleloaders and "unmentionables " that will ring steel at 300, shoot ragged holes at 100, etc but I have the most fun with Smoothbores shooting round ball paper cartridges.

For some unexplainable reason they're just more fun.

I just use as close as I can get to the original load and go from there.

 

[desi23]

I'm in the process of trying to get Loyalist Arms to have a P59 .65 Smoothbore "post Mutiny musket" made for me, because I just think they're neat.

If I wasn't a collector of oddball stuff I wouldn't bother with these Indian muskets but putting one on layaway with Middlesex Village was an impulse buy and I figured I'd see what I got.

Now, the article I read about the guy shooting the Nepalese made P53 with Minie balls and a full charge of 80 gr , he , quote "decided to retire the old piece when the hammer started blowing back" ......shooting a 150+ year old Enfield , that was made in Nepal and stored in a palace basement for 100 years definitely takes a bigger set than I've got

Well I shoot my Nepalese P53, haven't had any issues. Don't know why he would have been shooting 80 grs, most sources I have read indicate the original loading was closer to 60 grs and mine shoots quite well with a US pattern Minie and 60 grs 2F. Some day I hope to try it with the British pattern bullet to see how it performs. As to the hammer blow back I would suspect the nipple was worn out (several Nepalese muskets I've looked at had rather large nipple holes), combine that with even a slightly larger charge that would be likely to give you a blow back issue

 

[Stantheman86]

Shooting a Nepalese produced Enfield musket?

You sir are my Hero

 

[FlinterNick]

Indian guns are not at all consistent, which is a problem, and most of the potential safety issues only show up if/when the gun is taken apart, so buying one is definitely a crap game of sorts. The only advantage of a smooth bore gun that I can think of, other than cost, is the ease of cleaning. If you're only shooting light to moderate blank loads, a properly inspected Indian gun would probably be an okay choice, but unless you're able and willing to do this work yourself the Indian gun isn't really going to save you nearly as much money. I pulled the breach plug, hardened some parts, and added a hickory dowel through the wrist of an Indian gun that was going to use for reenacting, and I'd gone through a half dozen guns to select the best one out of the batch, and yes, there was a rather obvious range of quality within the group. Buying from a trusted vendor is a probably a bigger deal here than the price.

Smoothbore Advantages in 18th century were pretty much centered around the effectiveness of fire in ranks. Otherwise today a smoothbore is just as effective as a smoothbore shotgun