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Japanese Matchlock Details
- Thread starter Little Rabbit
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:rotf: :rotf:
Nothing to do with Japanese matchlock guns, but I have a Japanese "Special Navy Rifle". In the barrel channel are pencil characters for "Nakamura". I assume that he was the assembler.
Wouldn't be surprised if the ink mark in the photo isn't related to the maker.
Wouldn't be surprised if the ink mark in the photo isn't related to the maker.
GurneeBill
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I just joined the forum today and I'm glad I found some members who know about Japanese Tanegashima matchlocks. I just acquired two yesterday included in a collection that I purchased from an older gentleman. I've never been a member of a forum so I'm a little unsure about just jumping in. From an outsider it seems like I'm crashing a conversation.
I'm very concerned about doing anything to these rifles. I'd like to preserve their value so can I clean them? I'd also like to identify them? There's not a lot of information out there. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I'm very concerned about doing anything to these rifles. I'd like to preserve their value so can I clean them? I'd also like to identify them? There's not a lot of information out there. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Welcome Pilgrim!
Check assorted references as to cleaning including any threads here. First and foremost you do not want to "refinish" an original unles it already has no value (which basically means you have a part and it is only of interest as a tomato stake).
Cleaning is fine but it cannot alter the material of the arm. Do not, for example, use sandpaper on anything. Nor a steel brush. Nor steel wool. Acid is out. Metal dental picks are dangerous. Some chemical reagents are so harsh they can interact with and change metals so be advised -- Naval Jelly is not what I was thinking but is another good example of something not to use.
Simple cleaning agents, soft cleaning implements, and a little atience and elbow grease will work fine enough...
Check assorted references as to cleaning including any threads here. First and foremost you do not want to "refinish" an original unles it already has no value (which basically means you have a part and it is only of interest as a tomato stake).
Cleaning is fine but it cannot alter the material of the arm. Do not, for example, use sandpaper on anything. Nor a steel brush. Nor steel wool. Acid is out. Metal dental picks are dangerous. Some chemical reagents are so harsh they can interact with and change metals so be advised -- Naval Jelly is not what I was thinking but is another good example of something not to use.
Simple cleaning agents, soft cleaning implements, and a little atience and elbow grease will work fine enough...
robinghewitt
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Hi Bill
Welcome and look out for the finish on anything old and Japanese. A lot of these guns came back to the US as WW2 souvenirs. The Japanese did lacquer work, an impossible mixture of boiled tree sap, dead beetles and stuff in to which you dipped things that you wanted to be shiny.
There is nothing like it available that I know of, so take care of it. Polyurethane does not look the same :thumbsup:
Robin
Welcome and look out for the finish on anything old and Japanese. A lot of these guns came back to the US as WW2 souvenirs. The Japanese did lacquer work, an impossible mixture of boiled tree sap, dead beetles and stuff in to which you dipped things that you wanted to be shiny.
There is nothing like it available that I know of, so take care of it. Polyurethane does not look the same :thumbsup:
Robin
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I worked on three original Tanegashima's and one reproduction at the World Championships of the IMC at Wedgnock, UK. What FLOORED me was the springs are BRONZE instead of steel. That showed a rather incredible knowledge of making bronze that I have been told would be hard to duplicate today. Oh, inside one of the originals, there was a bronze coil spring made from sheet bronze and wrapped in a coil.
I do not know if this is nothing but a complete fabrication, but I've been told the hole in the rear sight was for putting a string through it so a plumb bob could be hung from the gun. There is an ancient story of one group of Samurai laying siege to a fortress. Every night after dark, there was I think a flute player in the fortress who played a flute to mock the attacking Samurai. The Lord of the attacking Samurai offered a bounty to anyone who kill the flute player.
One Tanegashima armed marksman supposedly used such a plumb bob during daylight to mark the position the gun would need to be in to hit the flute player at night. He supposedly left a stone or a small pile of stones where the plumb bob hovered over it. Not sure how he marked the angle from the plumb bob line as that is not usually mentioned. That night when the flute player came out to begin playing, the Tanegashima armed marksman got set up by using the plumb bob over the stone/stones he had laid previously and it was good enough to kill the flute player in the dark. Now, whether or not it is true, it is a good story. Grin.
Gus
I do not know if this is nothing but a complete fabrication, but I've been told the hole in the rear sight was for putting a string through it so a plumb bob could be hung from the gun. There is an ancient story of one group of Samurai laying siege to a fortress. Every night after dark, there was I think a flute player in the fortress who played a flute to mock the attacking Samurai. The Lord of the attacking Samurai offered a bounty to anyone who kill the flute player.
One Tanegashima armed marksman supposedly used such a plumb bob during daylight to mark the position the gun would need to be in to hit the flute player at night. He supposedly left a stone or a small pile of stones where the plumb bob hovered over it. Not sure how he marked the angle from the plumb bob line as that is not usually mentioned. That night when the flute player came out to begin playing, the Tanegashima armed marksman got set up by using the plumb bob over the stone/stones he had laid previously and it was good enough to kill the flute player in the dark. Now, whether or not it is true, it is a good story. Grin.
Gus
robinghewitt
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Artificer said:
I have a mid to late 15th century English lock and that uses a coiled leaf spring. Some bod at the Royal Armouries showed me a book picture of the only other example he had been able to find and I seem to remember it was Burmese. Now I thought these things were peculiar to Japan due to the Portuguese connection and closed borders thing, but I guess assuming anything is a bad idea
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Interesting! I can see how a coil steel spring would have been used by clock makers in England and transferred to guns. A buddy brought an original English Wheel lock to a gun show last year to show me and he believes a clock maker had at least something to do with it as it was so finely made for a rather plain wheel lock.
I still am amazed by the bronze coil spring.
Gus
I still am amazed by the bronze coil spring.
Gus
robinghewitt
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Hi Gus
I believe the makers of armour were the first to use the coiled leaf spring.
OTOH I am probably just about to find out that I am wrong :rotf:
Incidentally IIRC my olde gun lock is all bronze apart from the serpentine, the little wedges that hold it together and the nails that held it to the stock.
Robin
I believe the makers of armour were the first to use the coiled leaf spring.
OTOH I am probably just about to find out that I am wrong :rotf:
Incidentally IIRC my olde gun lock is all bronze apart from the serpentine, the little wedges that hold it together and the nails that held it to the stock.
Robin
Brave Sir Robin, you ARE wrong.
Now, what IS a coil leaf spring* other than an oxymoron (no jokes please) and...
...why does my VOIP telephone keep lighting up and then going back to dark!?
*Like a split lock washer I presume but I can't remember ever seeing one in application offhand. Hmmm...
Now, what IS a coil leaf spring* other than an oxymoron (no jokes please) and...
...why does my VOIP telephone keep lighting up and then going back to dark!?
*Like a split lock washer I presume but I can't remember ever seeing one in application offhand. Hmmm...
This illustration alone makes me believe they worked at long range shots. Just wish I knew what the writing actually meant.
http://silverhawkauthor.com/images...ock_siting_instructions_for_indirect_fire.jpg
http://silverhawkauthor.com/images...ock_siting_instructions_for_indirect_fire.jpg
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robinghewitt
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Alden said:
A coiled leaf spring is what it says it is. It is that which is called/named/yclept "coiled leaf spring", nothing more, nothing less.
Perhaps it is something like the plantar fascia. A thing you don't know you have until it goes wrong :idunno:
Gurnee Bill: You are quite safe. Alden only attacks me because he is insanely jealous of my castle and my gun collection. I have put a price on his head but he keeps changing trailer park and is hard to find.
I don't attack you Brave Sir Robin! Though it's true I do not appreciate how you mistreat your arms.
Besides, I done gradurated a UK public school, which are private, and am in a Council House which may be why you can't find me in my caravan (which tows a small all-wheel-drive-car). That said I do aspire to a doublewide in Idaho where I can eat a peace of grits in piece.
Besides, I done gradurated a UK public school, which are private, and am in a Council House which may be why you can't find me in my caravan (which tows a small all-wheel-drive-car). That said I do aspire to a doublewide in Idaho where I can eat a peace of grits in piece.
You'll see the 'coil' spring set-up in quite a few of the Japanese guns.
http://www.mlsa.sakura.ne.jp/old/eng/image/im05_01.jpg
http://www.brlsi.org/sites/all/files/FA038_Japan_gun_T3_650.jpg
and just for fun...Samurai version of a "crew-fired weapon"...
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com...xRmDnXmT5pRPqeBLZmLQHdIMpsN8Ub2b2iJxmDZ046sVJ
http://www.mlsa.sakura.ne.jp/old/eng/image/im05_01.jpg
http://www.brlsi.org/sites/all/files/FA038_Japan_gun_T3_650.jpg
and just for fun...Samurai version of a "crew-fired weapon"...
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com...xRmDnXmT5pRPqeBLZmLQHdIMpsN8Ub2b2iJxmDZ046sVJ
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A coiled spring. Now that is interesting. The only Japanese matchlock - lock - I've ever seen on the inside was my own. DARN! I should have taken pics of my lock when it was off. :slap: Don't know how I forgot. 
The inside of mine has a simple sear/bar set up that you would imagine. But the coiled spring set up is really different. The travel time of the serpentine is so short, I can see how this would work. Very interesting. Thanks for posting the photos. Rick. :hatsoff:
The inside of mine has a simple sear/bar set up that you would imagine. But the coiled spring set up is really different. The travel time of the serpentine is so short, I can see how this would work. Very interesting. Thanks for posting the photos. Rick. :hatsoff:In both of Shigeo Sugawa's books on Japanese matchlocks, there are several shown with coil/wound type main springs - they are however of brass. These books are absolutely the finest and most definitive works on the subject. All pictures are in color and every conceivable Japanese matchlock accouterment is shown. Also, before I forget, in 1982 at the WIS. gun collector show there were 2 Japanese matchlocks that were altered to bolt actions, firing a military type necked center fire cartridge thru their smooth bore barrels. If I recall, he wanted $150.00 a piece. Should have bought them. G.S.
