Loyalist Arms Bess

[hawkeye2]

The whole world other than us uses the metric system so why would it be anything but. I would have difficulty believing they put USCS threads on the rammer. Wait till you get the gun and take the rammer to Lowes and try on nuts till you find one that works. It is also a very good idea not to buy a mold or patches till you have the gun in hand as there is usually quite a variation in their bores.

 

[Alden]

If you don't like the answers of buying or borrowing a thread guage we gave you, the answer Loyalist gave you when you called and maybe misheard by your own admission, don't appreciate that there probably is no standard threading on anything India-made, don't wanna call Loyalist back, and don't want to rethread the ramrod yourself...

...no answer could possibly suit you and I think you're out of luck here son.

Enjoy and be safe!

 

[pargent]

I have paid way too much for train wreck originals (for what they are) restoration projects, too much for a Pedersoli second hand kit and rebuilt it ,in these cases the effort makes the end result worth it , but down here a new Indian musket is the same price as a good used Pedersoli and a curry pistol is twice the price of a pedersoli pistol ,that makes them not worth the asking price or the effort.

 

[Pete G]

India uses the English system of measurement. It is most likely 10-32.

 

[Ike Godsey]

India uses the English system of measurement. It is most likely 10-32.

thats correct. the india guns i have or had my hands on and in it all used the english measurement system.

@eaglesnester: there is a good advise around here in this thread: WAIT UNTIL YOU GET THE GUN! :v

ike

 

[Ike Godsey]

I have paid way too much for train wreck originals (for what they are) restoration projects, too much for a Pedersoli second hand kit and rebuilt it ,in these cases the effort makes the end result worth it , but down here a new Indian musket is the same price as a good used Pedersoli and a curry pistol is twice the price of a pedersoli pistol ,that makes them not worth the asking price or the effort.

OK - but thats your problem.
I ask for a price before I buy.

Just got a call from UPS this morning. They told me that my shipment from Loyalist Arms hass arrived in Germany last night. They also said the custum and tax is around 250€ (300 - 320US$) for the two LLP-Bess muskets. This added to the price I already had to pay makes one of the muskets 732,00€.

Compared to the 1100,00€ for a Pedersoli Bess, Loyalist Bess is the way better deal. Let alone the fact the Pedersoli is not useable for FWI. Not to mention 46" Barrel, double bridled DUBLIN CASTLE Lock and wooden rammer on the Loyalist Arms musket.

Ike

 

[Ike Godsey]

Ike, I don't know about there, but here we have a strange phenomenon... People buy the cheapest, least expensive, thing available and then defend it like they are on trial for their life. Maybe their life is on trial which is why they do it... Buy a cheap gun, make up reasons why OTHER than price. It is especially common with $99 Soviet military surplus -- it inevitably (d)evolves into "the best" after it's bought.

I had a sister with a Saturn car (now out of business) -- the cheapest thing around until the Dodge Neon, she defined it as the highest quality hood (bonnet) to fender fit so they bought it. Sure! And India-made are the closest to originals...

One of three reasons India-made guns are purchased is that they are at least 1/2 the price of another option. The second of three reasons is that they are 1/3rd less expensive (until you factor in the tuning and failures) than the better imports.

Well, same is true here.
Anyway, when I look for a gun, I need to calculate before i buy.
Consider Pedersoli Bess vs LLP from India. Both need "tuning" - so at the end of the day, I am far better off with a lower startprice plus a longer barrel - don't you think?

Fact is, if I have an "early" style LLP i can use it in both FIW and AWI reenactments. A reworked Pedersoli Bess is still AWI ONLY.

So whats the better deal? :hmm:

Ike

 

[Alden]

No, I don't think the price makes the India-made a better deal. Me? The only choice is a Pedersoli (if not actually custom made, but then I'd probably worry about it too much). You asked!

We use the Pedersoli here for both F&I and Rev War because there is no decent mass-made 1st Model Bess, pedersoli's is representative, is period correct if not likely to have actually been here broadly for much of either conflist, is close enough, is the state of the art and uniform, and "TDK."*

You saved some money -- very good. You still have an India-made as your go-to gun -- not very good. Mine was originally a backup and affordable/available representation of a 1st Model to my now retired Miroku Bess -- been at this a while. Today I don't even bring it as a backup Bess... I have a Pedersoli, that old Miroku, this double secret probation 2nd Model, another Pedersoli KIT in storage, and, yes, that honkin' first 1st Model Bess waiting for me to put a SureForm rasp to it. It is seen, and may be shot, but will never be carried on a field again in my lifetime.



*"They (the public) don't know" -- a tenet of reenacting.

 

[Ike Godsey]

Pedersolis are NOT in any way a choise if one reenacts FWI.

ike

 

[Alden]

'course they are, around since 1740 -- and ubiquitous here albeit for line infantry. Sorry. Tell Pedersoli to make a LLP -- that's how accepted their gun is. Rare that 2nd Model is NOT what you'd see here...

 

[Artificer]

Ike,

The Pedersoli and Japanese Besses have been allowed here in FIW reeanacting for quite some time because there was no correct FIW musket available for many years. Probably will stay that way for some time to come.

Technically, you are correct the Pedersoli as it comes from the factory is not correct for FIW, but it can be modified to make it correct as a "Cut down Musket" like Kit Ravenshear used to do and explained in the following linked post. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/1456433/

Gus

 

[Alden]

My position has been that there's no reason for Pedersoli to make a LLP -- their current SLP is that by which all others are measured. Not like India-made is gonna make a big difference. The profit from their Bess' probably lets the company break-even and every other adventure in production is just gravy on which they can swim along doing a breast stroke...

Maybe someday! Maybe a Spanish firm will dust off some equipment and make a non-embarassing LLP. Guess there's only enough of a market for guys who literally are sitting on the floor filing locks and know nothing about guns to produce them for the foreseeable future...

 

[Ike Godsey]

Ike,

The Pedersoli and Japanese Besses have been allowed here in FIW reeanacting for quite some time .....

OK, that does also mean one could wear tennis shoes for FWI reenacting. :rotf:

 

[Alden]

This added to the price I already had to pay makes one of the muskets 732,00€.

Compared to the 1100,00€ for a Pedersoli Bess, Loyalist Bess is the way better deal.

Ike

Ike;
It's not the Pedersoli that is overpriced in your calculation, it's the India-made musket.

The India-made is too expensive for a gun that is just a level above "home decor" when compared to a Pedersoli. Sorry man, they're just not even in the same league, and that's not being negative about India-made -- in fact I am giving them the benefit of the doubt that they ARE firearms.

 

[hawkeye2]

"India uses the English system of measurement."

Amazing news! :shocked2: USCS or English (Whitworth, BSF) threads? Zonie, what does your Enfield have?

 

[Alden]

OK, that does also mean one could wear tennis shoes for FWI reenacting. :rotf:

Ike, maybe you are laughing because that's a silly comment you made...

If British military tennis shoes were around a decade or two before the F&I war and all the other century of conflicts the Brown Bess was used in, and only tennis shoes were safe and practical, yeah, that's what we'd be wearing.

You are on no moral high ground here choosing an India-made LLP. In fact, you'd probably be considered cheap if not too poor to participate and definitely inconsiderate by and large for putting a pipebomb in the line. You'd almost certainly be encouraged to replace your gun at your earliest opportunity with something of quality like a Pedersoli by unit officers if they didn't act more directly and you passed inspection and safety checks to begin with.

India-made-guns may be tolerated -- they are, understandably in my opinion, NOT accepted. And that's only because we're firing blank loads.

Sorry again man...

 

[Ike Godsey]

This added to the price I already had to pay makes one of the muskets 732,00€.

Compared to the 1100,00€ for a Pedersoli Bess, Loyalist Bess is the way better deal.

Ike

Ike;
It's not the Pedersoli that is overpriced in your calculation, it's the India-made musket.

The India-made is too expensive for a gun that is just a level above "home decor" when compared to a Pedersoli. Sorry man, they're just not even in the same league, and that's not being negative about India-made -- in fact I am giving them the benefit of the doubt that they ARE firearms.

I really don't know if you know this or not, but I am shooting BP and muskets a long time.
I use Pedersoli Bess and had good if not very good results with it life firing.

Since 3 years I shoot two different India made muskets, a French 1717 and a "india Pattern" (3rd Mod. Bess).
Both inida muskets are tuned (lock, trigger) as is my Pedersoli.

You should know that here in Germany ALL weapons must be proofed by a govt. proofehouse. ALL Inida guns I had my hands on passed the test with NO problems. After tuning the flintlock on my inda 1717 this thing went off quicker than my percussion Haken rifle.

As for results, the Pedersoli Bess is still a good gun, very good, but it did not came close to the results I had with the 1717.

For fun I compared the 1717 with my 1734 TVLLE de Grenadier, made by Mendi in Spain for the Canada Park Service (I have shown this piece here about a year ago). This little gun is nicely build but shoots not even close to the Pedersoli, with is only second compared to my 1717 French Musket.

For reenactments i use a india made 1728 - that gun never misfired - when the flint is OK.

If you ask if I like the Pedersoli - yes I do.
Would I buy another Pedersoli Bess - NO!

I have ordered the LLP that comes right now via UPS from Loyalist Arms 'cause here on the board they say the quality is the best of all the india improted muskets.
I really do hope so, cause what we could get here in Germany is VERY limited and really very low quality.
Compare - I could have a LLP from the dealer in France for 450€ - I have ordered one in Canada instead, knowing that the price would be nearly 80% higher.
Some would ask "Why"? 'cause I like to have a musket that fits my outfit in the FWI and I like those "hand made" india guns much more than a CNC cut thing from Pedersoli. It simply does not feel and does not look right for FWI.

Ike

 

[Ike Godsey]

you did not get the point Alden.

 

[Ike Godsey]

You are on no moral high ground here choosing an India-made LLP. In fact, you'd probably be considered cheap if not too poor to participate and definitely inconsiderate by and large for putting a pipebomb in the line. You'd almost certainly be encouraged to replace your gun at your earliest opportunity with something of quality like a Pedersoli by unit officers if they didn't act more directly and you passed inspection and safety checks to begin with.

a pipebomb?

are those guns from india a piece of trash? could easily be.
but, i would like to tell you a real story of my life.
back in 1997 i ordered a US made fowler with nice curly maple stock, L&R Ketland lock, a getz 44" barrel in .62.
the gun was handmade from a US maker, his name is *****.

i spend about 2000DM on it. which was about 1200US$ in those days. plus shipping, plus tax plus custom, it was around 2600DM.

the gun came in the easter week and i was very excited - opened the box, put a flint in the lock, and OMG! i have never seen a lock, making so less sparks as this one. it turns out, that this L&R Lock makes good sparks with synthetic flints, not with natural ones.

as you know, if you want to fire such guns here in germany no need to have an official proof on the gun. so i clled the nearest proof house on the phone and asked for the details. drove the the proof house, handled them the gun, ask if i can stay and watch - which i could - they loaded the gun and fired it - and that was the last thing i saw of my gun. it blow up right at its first shot! i was shocked and happy at the same time! shocked cause of the money that just blow up, happy cause the german proof safed my life.

the rest of the story is easily told: i contacted the maker, who had no computer at those days, told him what happends and never heared a word from him.

my india made 1728 French musket does have a german proof:

and i would put my hand in a campfire - this gun is as safe as a Pedersoli Bess. :v

Ike

 

[nhmoose]

Best answer that gets my vote!!!!!!!! Thanks :hatsoff: