Loyalist Arms Bess

[Ike Godsey]

So, my two Long Lands from loyalist Arms in Canada came in today.
Looking over them, those two muskets are a far better Quality then anything I have seen here.
I really do not know if its the work that the folks at Loyalist Arms put in it, or if this is just a better producer in India, those are VERY fine muskets.
The locks sparking like hell - the trigger pull is OK compared to the India made muskets we could have from our Frence dealer.

The musktes came with the features of the 1740th type of Kings Muskets.
They got a wooden rammer, banana shaped lock, marked wit DUBLIN CASTLE 1741, no noese cap.

As it turns out, I payed about 3/5 of the price of a Pedersoli Shortland Pattern for each musket, delivered to my door.

I am very satisfied.
Here are two quick pics:

Ike :v

 

[Artificer]

Ike,

The lock moldings or "aprons" as Bailey writes are a bit too large and clunky. HOWEVER, I would MUCH prefer them too large rather than too small, as you can trim them down to size.

The early P1730 trigger guard is neat and correct for this model.

VERY GLAD you are well satisfied. Good for you!!

How about letting us know how they come through the German Proof House?

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Ike,

Can you show us some pictures of the buttplate tang and rear of the stock, please?

Gus

 

[coloradoclyde]

The musktes came with the features of the 1740th type of Kings Muskets.
They got a wooden rammer, banana shaped lock, marked wit DUBLIN CASTLE 1741, no noese cap.

What model did you order?
I cannot seem to find anything that they sell representing your pictures
Your photos show a very nice quality.
Did the flash cup sling swivels come with the gun or are the something you added?
Maybe you could provide a link?

More photos would be great!

 

[Ike Godsey]

The musktes came with the features of the 1740th type of Kings Muskets.
They got a wooden rammer, banana shaped lock, marked wit DUBLIN CASTLE 1741, no noese cap.

What model did you order?
I cannot seem to find anything that they sell representing your pictures
Your photos show a very nice quality.
Did the flash cup sling swivels come with the gun or are the something you added?
Maybe you could provide a link?

More photos would be great!

Flash Guard, Swifels, Flint and Leather for the Flint all came with the gun at no extra charge.
As well as the oiled stock and the dark stain, which was my request.

I am sorry, I cannot show you a link. eMails are going back & forth describing them what I want. Many thanks to Gus - he was of great help during that time. :thumbsup:
The result of all this was the muskets they came up with and they exactly fits my needs and wants.

I will come up with some more pics soon.

Oh, price was shortly under 750€ per musket which would be around 900US$, shipped over here to Germany including Tax and customs - good price compared to the high quality!

Ike

 

[Ike Godsey]

Here are some more pics. I removed the flash guard.

@Gus: If you wanna see something else, just drop me a line.

The 1862 Peabody Carbine is pictured to show you how BIG this musket is.

Ike

 

[coloradoclyde]

That's far better quality than I expected.

 

[Ike Godsey]

That's far better quality than I expected.

I have been through a lot of india made muskets and gear in the past years. One of the reasons is, that over here in Germany we lack the wide scale of shops and gunmakers you have in the US.
So we order there, where we get a desired model of gun, may it be a French 1717, 1728 or a Long Land Pattern or....

Many of the guns of our reenactors came from India. Quality is spreading from very poor to outstanding.

But those two muskets are "head and shoulders" above everyhing inidan made I have seen before.

Ike

 

[Artificer]

The musktes came with the features of the 1740th type of Kings Muskets.
They got a wooden rammer, banana shaped lock, marked wit DUBLIN CASTLE 1741, no noese cap.

What model did you order?

Clyde,

I won't go over the entire episode of how our belabored Ike was trying to get across what he wanted and some mistakes made by some companies in checking their inventories of guns they had on hand. I had no problem understanding what Ike wanted, but some of the emails from some of the companies confused me a good deal as well.
:haha:


Ike was most concerned the locks be dated 1741 and as Loyalist has the locks engraved themselves, that was quite possible. He also wanted a Double Bridle lock and preferred a Wooden Ramrod. So I checked Bailey's books and "The Brown Bess" by Goldstein and Mowbray for what Pattern Musket would be correct for the features Ike wanted.

Fortunately the original P1740 LLP Muskets were different from the P1730 LLP Muskets in at least one, if not two or even all three of the following characteristics:

P1740 Characteristics

1. Began using Double Bridle locks as Ike wanted OR may have still had the older style P1730 single bridle locks.

2. May have had the old style lock moldings or aprons as Bailey describes them OR the newer style less elaborate moldings/aprons.

3. May have had either the old style P1730 trigger guard OR may have had the newer and stronger style trigger guard that became standard on the P1742 Muskets and for most of the rest of the 18th century.

Ike's Musket came with the newer Double Bridle lock and Older pattern lock molding/aprons and older pattern trigger guard. So it is a correct version for a P1740 Musket that could be correctly stamped with the 1741 date he wanted.

Personally, I REALLY like the old style and more elaborate lock molding/aprons (as on Ike's musket)because I find them more elegant. However, that extra work to carve them no doubt took more time and was more costly, so British Ordnance went to simpler moldings/aprons on the P1742 muskets and never went back to the earlier moldings/aprons.

Gus

 

[Ike Godsey]

Well you see Gus, at the end, everything worked out great. :wink:
The only thing I would add is a nose cap, from shiet metal. I am not sure if in brass or copper.

Once this is added - it is a perfect musket for FWI as well as for Lexington/Concord and later on.

Thanks again for your support.

Ike

 

[Artificer]

Well you see Gus, at the end, everything worked out great. :wink:
The only thing I would add is a nose cap, from shiet metal. I am not sure if in brass or copper.

Once this is added - it is a perfect musket for FWI as well as for Lexington/Concord and later on.

Thanks again for your support.

Ike

I was really hoping they would get it right for you. Glad to see they did!

As to the sheet metal nose band. If it was added by British Ordnance or their Armorers in the field, it was most likely to be Brass.

If the noseband was done here in the Colonies by local civilian gunsmiths or Armorers, it is more likely it would have been copper because copper cost less than brass. However, it still could have been brass. So the choice is up to you.

I was happy to help a fellow Re-enactor and you are most welcome.
Gus

 

[Ike Godsey]

Well you see Gus, at the end, everything worked out great. :wink:
The only thing I would add is a nose cap, from shiet metal. I am not sure if in brass or copper.

Once this is added - it is a perfect musket for FWI as well as for Lexington/Concord and later on.

Thanks again for your support.

Ike

I was really hoping they would get it right for you. Glad to see they did!

As to the sheet metal nose band. If it was added by British Ordnance or their Armorers in the field, it was most likely to be Brass.

If the noseband was done here in the Colonies by local civilian gunsmiths or Armorers, it is more likely it would have been copper because copper cost less than brass. However, it still could have been brass. So the choice is up to you.

In Goldstein/Mowbrays Book on page 30/31 they show a musket to which mine is "matching" (as far as this is the correct term when talking about a replica). This one got a brass nose cap.
On page 39 they show a copper one... :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

I was happy to help a fellow Re-enactor and you are most welcome.
Gus

:hatsoff: :thumbsup:

Ike

 

[Ike Godsey]

I just got some more pics:

 

[Silky921]

That was what I thought when I received nearly the same smoothbore earlier this year. Very fine wood to metal fitting and nice looking all the way around.

 

[Artificer]

Ike,

Neat portfolio of pictures! I must say it was good you already showed it next to a Peabody Carbine for perspective, as it looks shorter in these photo's than what it is.

Gus

 

[Ike Godsey]

Gus,

that thing is HUGE. Really. The buttplate is about 1" longer than the one on the Pedersoli Bess.

Some would say the stock is bulky. But it is really not. It just "feels" right.

Besides this, in Goldstein/Mowbrays Bess Book is written that the stock of "the Bess" becomes more slender as they changed from wooden to steel rammer.
My Loyalist Arms Bess got a wooden rammer - so...
Also I think - and this is my assumption - what we see today in the books are muskets that have seen hard use. They have been handled, fired, carried, and cleaned. I think, by looking at some of the pics in the above mentioned book, the stock "in new" was also a bit bigger in the old days, and gets "worn" with the muskets life.

Like I said earlier in this thread, there are things one could change if it is important:

1) adding (or not) a nose cap
2) get rid of the upper screw seen behind the cock (not a big deal)
3) get rid of the sharp edges on the stock.
4) make a new and a bit longer (upper part) top jaw screw without hole.

#4 is a must for me, als well as #2.
#3 will come by using the musket and #1 I am still not sure of.

Everything else on this musket is just fine. :grin:

Here is a pic from the inside of the lock:

Ike :wink:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Adding a nosecap, or would it be better to add a brass strip as a reinforcing band where the nose cap would later be introduced?

LD

 

[Ike Godsey]

do not understand LD, please make it more detailed.

Ike

 

[Artificer]

Adding a nosecap, or would it be better to add a brass strip as a reinforcing band where the nose cap would later be introduced?

LD

Dave, I am very sure Ike meant to write Nose BANDS in the post above rather than Nose Caps. IOW, it was a slip of the tongue or in this case - slip of the writing.

Ike, Dave is pointing out that Cast Nose Caps did not come out until they changed to Steel Rammers. Nose Bands were used to strengthen the front ends of Wood Ramrod Muskets, as you know.

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yeah sorry if I was obtuse... I have the version with a cast nose cap, instead of a nose band, and of course THEN I found out that Loyalist units were issued the earlier 1748 version in large numbers, which probably weren't upgraded to cast, brass nose caps, even if switched to metal ramrods.

LD