Loyalist Arms Bess

[nhmoose]

you did not get the point Alden.

And will never

 

[Alden]

you did not get the point Alden.

I did get the point Ike...

The Pedersoli Bess is a fit for F&I for the reasons I had already outlined. Your strawman comparison to tennis shoes is completely absurd. That is to say a spurious argument at its most fundamental level. Ready?

Tennis shoes didn't exist in 1740. SLP Bess' did. Pedersoli SLP Bess' are what are used here in F&I for the most part. The only tennis shoes I've ever seen afield were worn by fruitcake Robert Small of the 42nd Reg't of (sore) Foot on Surrender Field at the 225th Anniversary of, and held on, Yorktown.

Now see if you can't help nhmoose through that as well as he seems to want some acceptance he can't have either...

 

[Ike Godsey]

you did not get the point Alden.

I did get the point Ike...

The Pedersoli Bess is a fit for F&I for the reasons I had already outlined. Your absurd strawman comparison to tennis shoes is completely absurd. Ready?

Tennis shoes didn't exist in 1740. SLP Bess' did. Pedersoli SLP Bess' are what are used here in F&I for the most part. The only tennis shoes I've ever seen afield were worn by fruity nutcake Robert Small of the 42nd Reg't of Foot on Surrender Field at the 225th Anniversary of, and held on, Yorktown.

Now see if you can't help nhmoose through that as well as he seems to want some acceptance he can't have either...

Alden,

the SLP does NOT appear before 1769.
FIW was over in 1763.

So in FWI, if you carry a Pedersoli Bess, I will wear tennis shoes - both did not exist in FWI!

Pedersolis Bess is not even close to a 1769 SLP, it has a small straight edged lock - it is earliest 1777!

Ike

 

[Alden]

LOL You really DON'T get it I see...

Regardless, enjoy your $886 India-made Bess, it's spare you bought, and be safe.

 

[Alden]

...i would like to tell you a real story of my life.
back in 1997 i ordered a US made fowler with nice curly maple stock, L&R Ketland lock, a getz 44" barrel in .62.
the gun was handmade from a US maker, his name is *****.

i spend about 2000DM on it. which was about 1200US$ in those days. plus shipping, plus tax plus custom, it was around 2600DM.

the gun came in the easter week and i was very excited - opened the box, put a flint in the lock, and OMG! i have never seen a lock, making so less sparks as this one. it turns out, that this L&R Lock makes good sparks with synthetic flints, not with natural ones.

as you know, if you want to fire such guns here in germany no need to have an official proof on the gun. so i clled the nearest proof house on the phone and asked for the details. drove the the proof house, handled them the gun, ask if i can stay and watch - which i could - they loaded the gun and fired it - and that was the last thing i saw of my gun. it blow up right at its first shot! i was shocked and happy at the same time! shocked cause of the money that just blow up, happy cause the german proof safed my life.

the rest of the story is easily told: i contacted the maker, who had no computer at those days, told him what happends and never heared a word from him.

Ike

Ike, we'd all appreciate knowing the part you "x"'d out -- whose gun was it you claim burst please.

 

[Ike Godsey]

I got you'r point Alden - don't worry.

All I gonna tell you is, here - you will not be allowed to carry a SLP in FWI reenactments.
Nor is it allowed to have any clothings wich are not sewn by hand - if the lacing is visable.

Seems to me that recreating "history" is something different here and in the US.

No harms.

Ike

 

[Ike Godsey]

...i would like to tell you a real story of my life.
back in 1997 i ordered a US made fowler with nice curly maple stock, L&R Ketland lock, a getz 44" barrel in .62.
the gun was handmade from a US maker, his name is *****.

i spend about 2000DM on it. which was about 1200US$ in those days. plus shipping, plus tax plus custom, it was around 2600DM.

the gun came in the easter week and i was very excited - opened the box, put a flint in the lock, and OMG! i have never seen a lock, making so less sparks as this one. it turns out, that this L&R Lock makes good sparks with synthetic flints, not with natural ones.

as you know, if you want to fire such guns here in germany no need to have an official proof on the gun. so i clled the nearest proof house on the phone and asked for the details. drove the the proof house, handled them the gun, ask if i can stay and watch - which i could - they loaded the gun and fired it - and that was the last thing i saw of my gun. it blow up right at its first shot! i was shocked and happy at the same time! shocked cause of the money that just blow up, happy cause the german proof safed my life.

the rest of the story is easily told: i contacted the maker, who had no computer at those days, told him what happends and never heared a word from him.

Ike

Ike, we'd all appreciate knowing the part you "x"'d out -- whose gun was it you claim burst please.

I am sure you're interested. What will it help if I post it here? All I will tell is, he is from Mississippi.

Ike

 

[Alden]

Well, it IS pretty important info Ike. I guess we know it's my buddy then... LOL

 

[Artificer]

Ike,

The Pedersoli and Japanese Besses have been allowed here in FIW reeanacting for quite some time .....

OK, that does also mean one could wear tennis shoes for FWI reenacting. :rotf:

:rotf: Good jest, but........ you do realize there were 18th century shoes made for the affluent to play an older form of Tennis (and was actually called Tennis going back a century or more before that) than the game we play today? :wink:

The ONLY reason I know that is because the Cordwainer at Colonial Williamsburg in the early 1980's, displayed some reproduction 18th century English Tennis Shoes that he had made along with reproductions of other English shoes and boots. So, yes, there really WERE FIW period HC/PC Tennis Shoes, though certainly not like the "Modern Tennis Shoes" sold today. :wink:

FIW reenacting here in America goes back to the 1970's/early 1980's when I began doing AWI in 1974. Since the Pedersoli was the ONLY reproduction Brown Bess for quite some time, it has been allowed for FIW reenacting for around 30 years before the Indian Muskets were available. Though it is NOT correct for FIW as sold, it will probably be allowed here for quite some time because so many have been allowed to be used here in FIW reenacting for four decades now.

It is just because Pedersoli and other possible gun makers refused to make a LLP musket, that demand began growing for one since 1980's and that Indian guns came to be made to fill that desire and be sold here.

Ike, I get a kick out of those who use the description "Miroku" Brown Bess instead of "a Bess made in Japan" or much more commonly "a JAP Bess" (as they were known for years) and then complain when India made guns are not openly advertised IN EACH description of each gun, but when the company is asked, they readily tell you the gun is made in India. It is a fact THAT Dixie DID NOT OPENLY MENTION those guns were made IN JAPAN for quite a few years when they began selling JAP Bess's. :stir: :grin:

Now to be FAIR, Miroku was already in modern gun production, so while rumours flew around THEM for the first few years, that actually ensured they had a good sound barrel. But there were many people back them calling them every derogatory thing in the books for their first years as well. However, the JAP BESS'S were purchased by many reenactors, because they were less expensive and even though many of their early versions did not work as well as the Pedersoli's. (GEE - One of the same reasons many people buy India made guns today.) Most of the problems were from the fact that just because someone can make a serviceable modern gun, it did not/does not mean they will make a good Flintlock until they get more feedback from the people who know flintlocks and the manufacturers understand how to build a better copy. The later JAP Bess's were better, but a lot cruder in many ways than the Pedersoli and less certain to far less certain of the JAP Bess working correctly when you got a new one VS the Pedersoli.

I have not worked on a huge number of JAP Bess's, but well over three or four dozen for different folks over the years. Even if one gets one of the "Old/Bad Ones," they can be fixed to make a good sound musket, though. Some time I will relate the story of the JAP Bess that had driven two Armourers before me nuts and frustrated me greatly before I figured out what the LAST problem was in that musket.


Gus

 

[pargent]

What is the fascination for FIW and British gear in Germany , I would have thought 1790-1815 would have been the big thing

 

[Ike Godsey]

What is the fascination for FIW and British gear in Germany , I would have thought 1790-1815 would have been the big thing

We have groups here reenacting Rogers Rangers, French Mariens, "Woodland Indians", non military citicens and so on. Here are some pics and links:

http://www.rogers-rangers-germany.com/

http://www.rogersrangers.livinghistory.cz/

http://www.scottish.livinghistory.cz/index.php

http://www.hdgm.de

The last Link is from the HDGM. This is a group reenacting most everything from Celts to Old West. The 18th Centruy part is mostly Ansbach-Bayreuth Troups - the ones that have been sold to King George III. and send to the AWI.

My bother founded this group. We're living in the area from wich those Regiments have been recruted. Every third family here got someone that has fought in the AWI.

The book about Johann Conrad Doehla - Diary of an "Hessian" soldier in the AWI - described that this Regiments marched by my house (my house was build in 1547) and rested nearby.

http://www.amazon.com/A-Hessian-Diary-American-Revolution/dp/0806125306

Baron de Kalb - a German officer, fought with the French in the AWI. He died in the battle of Camden. (I think as General??). His birthhouse is 10 dirving minutes away from my house. From time to time there is a US reenactor group coming over to his house to honor him.

What is facinating for us to reenact FWI/AWI?
Its our history too.
Its our history because of such people like Conrad Weiser, born November 2nd 1696 in Affstatt Germany, died July 13th 1760 in Womelsdorf, Berks County, PA. search for his live in the colonies - and you'll see why.

Ike

 

[pargent]

Right now I understand thanks :thumbsup:

 

[Leatherbark]

Cool. It always amazes me how our early history is interesting in other countries. Any of them ever re-enact as Hessians?

Bob

 

[Ike Godsey]

Cool. It always amazes me how our early history is interesting in other countries. Any of them ever re-enact as Hessians?

Bob

Oh well, here we go again....

With "Hessians" do you mean what?
Soldiers fought in the AWI that came form Hessia?
Or Soldiers fought in the AWI that came from Germany?

There is a sigificant difference in it. "Hessians" came from Hessia.

http://hessen-militär.de/was-wir-tun.html

Ansbach-Bayreuth Regiments came from Bavaria,
http://hdgmb.ellvis.de/index.php?LOC=18Jahrhundert&LID=

some Jaeger Regiments came from Braunschweig
http://www.braunschweiger-jaeger.de/

But I assume with "Hessians" you're talking about "German Soldiers" in the AWI.

Cheers,
Ike

 

[pargent]

Let us kick off a new topic before the pineapple arrives , lets call it Questions FOR ike . :thumbsup:

 

[Trot]

Cool. It always amazes me how our early history is interesting in other countries. Any of them ever re-enact as Hessians?

Bob

Don't forget as well, what we call the French and Indian war was really just part of a global war. There was much fighting in mainland Europe, especially areas now part of Germany, Cuba, the Philippines and India as well as many other areas.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Someday Pedersoli will move their manufacturing to India.....it's inevitable! :grin: :stir:

The world's #1 selling farm tractor is made in India.

 

[Alden]

I went to school once on deKalb Avenue.

Last time I posted Germany wasn't fully unified until 1871, I think, it was deleted -- maybe this time it'll survive and be of some use to the Americans here.

 

[Grumpa]

Ike,
I always find your posts, and the discussions they engender, most interesting and enjoyable, none more so than this one.

As was pointed out above, our French and Indian War was the Seven Years War in Europe ( and has been described by Winston Churchill as the first real World War).

I would love to see some of your re-enactor groups at some of our re-enactments. From the above pictures, they are outstanding. :hatsoff:

Thank you.
Grumpa

 

[Ike Godsey]

Ike,
I always find your posts, and the discussions they engender, most interesting and enjoyable, none more so than this one.

As was pointed out above, our French and Indian War was the Seven Years War in Europe ( and has been described by Winston Churchill as the first real World War).

I would love to see some of your re-enactor groups at some of our re-enactments. From the above pictures, they are outstanding. :hatsoff:

Thank you.
Grumpa

Thank you kindly. :hatsoff:

Ike