Curt LaManna
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I agree. I forgot about John Buck's goods.
My Leonard Day Matchlock is Artwork!
My Leonard Day Matchlock is Artwork!
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Matchlocks from India
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Okay, I think I can clear up some of this muddy water. India has a long history of defective firearms. These bad guns were imported by Indian rebels from the Khyber Pass.
This mountain pass runs between Pakistan and Afghanistan. It dates back to the days of when India was a British colony.
Tribal gunsmiths of the Khyber Pass would, and still do, duplicate British firearms, and later Russian, using whatever scrap metal may be laying about. Making copies of Snider rifles to modern day AK-74's!
Poor metalurgy and improper, if any, heat treatment, made these guns time bombs.
I remember reading of one instance, where they chopped up reels of celluloid movie film stock to use as powder in their cartridges. They had poor results with that.
More on Khyber Pass Copies on wikipedia
Many of these same "gunsmiths" now reside in modern day India, having been displaced by the Russian incursion into Afghanistan, and the Talaband fighting of today.
I have seen more than a few of these guns, from 12 feet away, you cannot tell its a counterfeit. Upon closer inspection, you will see the file marks and mis-spelling in the stamps that are telltale signs of these guns.
I, once, had a copy of a SMLE oiler, made in the Khyber Pass. Outside, it could easily pass, inside was crude cast and its leaks were sealed with lead.
For more information, do a Google search with the keywords - khyber pass gunsmiths
You get what you pay for.
And just a heads up, I was talking with John Buck yesterday, and he made the remark about needing to drum up some more work.
This mountain pass runs between Pakistan and Afghanistan. It dates back to the days of when India was a British colony.
Tribal gunsmiths of the Khyber Pass would, and still do, duplicate British firearms, and later Russian, using whatever scrap metal may be laying about. Making copies of Snider rifles to modern day AK-74's!
Poor metalurgy and improper, if any, heat treatment, made these guns time bombs.
I remember reading of one instance, where they chopped up reels of celluloid movie film stock to use as powder in their cartridges. They had poor results with that.
More on Khyber Pass Copies on wikipedia
Many of these same "gunsmiths" now reside in modern day India, having been displaced by the Russian incursion into Afghanistan, and the Talaband fighting of today.
I have seen more than a few of these guns, from 12 feet away, you cannot tell its a counterfeit. Upon closer inspection, you will see the file marks and mis-spelling in the stamps that are telltale signs of these guns.
I, once, had a copy of a SMLE oiler, made in the Khyber Pass. Outside, it could easily pass, inside was crude cast and its leaks were sealed with lead.
For more information, do a Google search with the keywords - khyber pass gunsmiths
You get what you pay for.
And just a heads up, I was talking with John Buck yesterday, and he made the remark about needing to drum up some more work.
Curt LaManna
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John Bucks website please?
Thanks!
Thanks!
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poordevil
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That is very interesting. I like the history associated with those guns. I know the British bought 20,000 or more during one of the world wars to keep them out of unfriendly hands.
Something I have to wonder though. If those guns were as bad as to blow up on a regular basis, the blown up person would be one of those tribal people who hold grudges very hard. I doubt one would stay alive very long selling crappy guns to those type of customers
I also see more, not less, vendors of the India made gun. They may not be everyone's cup of tea, but they are not the bomb waiting to happen either.
p
Something I have to wonder though. If those guns were as bad as to blow up on a regular basis, the blown up person would be one of those tribal people who hold grudges very hard. I doubt one would stay alive very long selling crappy guns to those type of customers
I also see more, not less, vendors of the India made gun. They may not be everyone's cup of tea, but they are not the bomb waiting to happen either.
p
I don't think I'd consider them dangerous, but the reason you see more vendors of them rather than less is not because they're safe or accurate, but because there's a profit margin.
For most of the vendors of them, they aren't worried about how good the gun is, just if they can make a living selling them. I know the wholesale costs of these (I know the supplier and at one point contacted them about ordering some), and can tell you there's a significant markup. Since there's a market and a supplier that's producing them at a sufficient margin, there are resellers. I know there's a number of people on this board that have these and are happy with them. I've inspected some of them myself, and if I could acquire them at the wholesale cost without having to order a whole lot of them to make frieght reasonable, I'd consider owning a couple, but at the resale prices, I'd gladly pay a little more to someone like John Buck for a much better gun.
That's only my opinion, and worth no more than you paid for it.
For most of the vendors of them, they aren't worried about how good the gun is, just if they can make a living selling them. I know the wholesale costs of these (I know the supplier and at one point contacted them about ordering some), and can tell you there's a significant markup. Since there's a market and a supplier that's producing them at a sufficient margin, there are resellers. I know there's a number of people on this board that have these and are happy with them. I've inspected some of them myself, and if I could acquire them at the wholesale cost without having to order a whole lot of them to make frieght reasonable, I'd consider owning a couple, but at the resale prices, I'd gladly pay a little more to someone like John Buck for a much better gun.
That's only my opinion, and worth no more than you paid for it.
very well said.
It is hard for me to believe you can blow up a smooth bore matchlock.
That being said.. I don't want to put my face behind a breech plug of a fire arm I wasn't convinced was well made and safe.
For a few more dollars and we are talking about a "FEW" You can have a better weapon.
PS the Wikipedia site on the gunsmiths is awesome.
It is hard for me to believe you can blow up a smooth bore matchlock.
That being said.. I don't want to put my face behind a breech plug of a fire arm I wasn't convinced was well made and safe.
For a few more dollars and we are talking about a "FEW" You can have a better weapon.
PS the Wikipedia site on the gunsmiths is awesome.
gabrielguitars
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I think there are many more documented incidents of burst barrels made in Spain than Indian barrels. In many ways, I think the Indian-made matchlocks are somewhat more accurate reproductions than many others, particularly because of the somewhat ramshackle methods used in their production. How many seamless barrels, heat-treating ovens, or powered surface planers do you think the early manufacturers had or used??? How strong do you think the original iron barrels were that were forged welded together with one or two seams the length of the barrel? We are saying that the people using power equipment are making better reproductions than the people making them in much the same manner as the originals. Sometimes I think your patriotism blinds you a little too much. Keep your money where your heart is if you like, but I don't think we have to totally bad-mouth people who are hand-building these weapons to make a living. And BTW, I had a Kyber-Pass made martini pistol chambered in full-length .303 British, and fired multiple times with no problems at all - worked like a charm, and was crude as hell!
How many instances of burst barrels from any source do you know of that are documented? I don't know of many, but I'd like to know why you think there are more Spanish or Italian burst barrels than Indian or Pakistani.
Modern technologies can make better parts than original techniques. Is that really surprising? That doesn't mean all guns made with original techniques are unsafe, but if they aren't made correctly, and with the proper materials they can be. I don't think all Indian guns are made thusly, and after inspecting some of the imports from the leading Indian distributor, I think they are generally safe, though often poorly designed and constructed.
Also, the originals that have survived weren't generally what could be described as ramshackle construction. If they were, they likely would have been destroyed shortly after their first (attempted) use. Since there are few manufacturers of matchlocks, what makes you think that a hand made American gun would be any less historically accurate than a hand made Indian one? If there isn't anything, then the question goes back to whether or not the quality of the craftsmanship is worth a very small difference in cost. That's a question only the purchaser can answer.
Modern technologies can make better parts than original techniques. Is that really surprising? That doesn't mean all guns made with original techniques are unsafe, but if they aren't made correctly, and with the proper materials they can be. I don't think all Indian guns are made thusly, and after inspecting some of the imports from the leading Indian distributor, I think they are generally safe, though often poorly designed and constructed.
Also, the originals that have survived weren't generally what could be described as ramshackle construction. If they were, they likely would have been destroyed shortly after their first (attempted) use. Since there are few manufacturers of matchlocks, what makes you think that a hand made American gun would be any less historically accurate than a hand made Indian one? If there isn't anything, then the question goes back to whether or not the quality of the craftsmanship is worth a very small difference in cost. That's a question only the purchaser can answer.
Curt LaManna
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Thanks, Widget! :thumbsup:widget350 said:
wheelockhunter
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I didnt even know india made ones still were around, tried finding aplace that sells them and I am unable to. Just want to compare the pricing and see what they look like
wheelockhunter said:
Both of these deal only with Indian manufactured guns: http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/ http://www.militaryheritage.com/
Most of the guns available here are Indian made as well: http://www.loyalistarms.com/mainpage.html
Somewhere I have the direct contact information for the manufacturer as well, but importing small lots would be very inconvenient and costly. You may be surprised at the markup these reseller have, though.
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Late 2007 I asked about 4 models, and their prices were $140-250, which was a markup of 200-300%, though there were frieght charges to add in (about $200 for 4 guns), and they would only ship them to West Palm Beach airport (near Miami), to be picked up there.
I decided not to bother, because in the end I'd be getting a really good deal on guns that I wouldn't be happy with.
I decided not to bother, because in the end I'd be getting a really good deal on guns that I wouldn't be happy with.
You "heard" that he's expensive?
I talked to him about making a wheellock a few years ago, and he quoted half the price of any other custom builder. I'd suggest calling him to ask what it would cost for him to make what you want rather than assuming it's too high. If after contacting him, you still feel you don't want to buy one of his guns, that's fine, but no need to advertise him as being expensive.
BTW, I don't own any of his guns, and have never even handled one, but it was his reputation of building a good quality muzzleloader at a reasonable price that made me contact him in the first place.
I have no stake in what anyone chooses to do with their money. This is an expensive hobby, and if you've been hit hard by the economy, I would prefer you to be prudent in your spending. Don't feed your hobby before you feed your family. My stance is if you can only afford to buy something that you wouldn't be happy with if you had the money for something better, you shouldn't buy it at all.
You see, it's not that money is no object, but in any times, you should always weigh any decision to spend it, because the value of money is not about market rates, but the value of what you receive for it.
If you buy food to feed your family - well spent.
If you buy an Indian gun to amuse yourself, and are amused by it - well spent.
If you buy an Indian gun to amuse yourself, and think you should have saved a little longer for something that would actually amuse you - poorly spent.
All I've said in this thread so far is that I would consider my money poorly spent if I bought what I consider to not be worth the cost. If after considering the cost, you determine the value of your time and money is different than mine - great! I will never criticise someone's choice to buy what they want, so if your family's healthy and you're happy with what you've got... :hatsoff:
I talked to him about making a wheellock a few years ago, and he quoted half the price of any other custom builder. I'd suggest calling him to ask what it would cost for him to make what you want rather than assuming it's too high. If after contacting him, you still feel you don't want to buy one of his guns, that's fine, but no need to advertise him as being expensive.
BTW, I don't own any of his guns, and have never even handled one, but it was his reputation of building a good quality muzzleloader at a reasonable price that made me contact him in the first place.
I have no stake in what anyone chooses to do with their money. This is an expensive hobby, and if you've been hit hard by the economy, I would prefer you to be prudent in your spending. Don't feed your hobby before you feed your family. My stance is if you can only afford to buy something that you wouldn't be happy with if you had the money for something better, you shouldn't buy it at all.
You see, it's not that money is no object, but in any times, you should always weigh any decision to spend it, because the value of money is not about market rates, but the value of what you receive for it.
If you buy food to feed your family - well spent.
If you buy an Indian gun to amuse yourself, and are amused by it - well spent.
If you buy an Indian gun to amuse yourself, and think you should have saved a little longer for something that would actually amuse you - poorly spent.
All I've said in this thread so far is that I would consider my money poorly spent if I bought what I consider to not be worth the cost. If after considering the cost, you determine the value of your time and money is different than mine - great! I will never criticise someone's choice to buy what they want, so if your family's healthy and you're happy with what you've got... :hatsoff:
First off I didn't say I owned Indian made
firearms and secondly I wasn't assuming
I know that he's expensive from personal
experience by me and another! I believe
opinions are freely shared on this forum
unless this your personal forum?
If you have $$$ to burn more power to
you,we all don't make BP oil exec saleries!
Rob :hmm:
firearms and secondly I wasn't assuming
I know that he's expensive from personal
experience by me and another! I believe
opinions are freely shared on this forum
unless this your personal forum?
If you have $$$ to burn more power to
you,we all don't make BP oil exec saleries!
Rob :hmm:
First off I didn't say I owned Indian made
firearms and secondly I wasn't assuming
I know that he's expensive from personal
experience by me and another! I believe
opinions are freely shared on this forum
unless this your personal forum?
If you have $$$ to burn more power to
you,we all don't make BP oil exec saleries!
Rob :hmm:
firearms and secondly I wasn't assuming
I know that he's expensive from personal
experience by me and another! I believe
opinions are freely shared on this forum
unless this your personal forum?
If you have $$$ to burn more power to
you,we all don't make BP oil exec saleries!
Rob :hmm:
