I would shoot it but I have to find musket caps. I have plenty of #11 caps, but musket caps have been hard to find locally.
Ron
Ron
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Navy Arms Springfield 1863/4
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Yes, Sir, Alden, that's the one!
Ron
Ron
you need a very hot torch with a fine tip, get the nipple red hot(with a fine tip you just heat the nipple) grab it with vise grips and turn it out. you have not put enough heat on it yet, if you don't have the right equip you need to find the right person who does, go to a old time body shop that may have done gas welding on light metal. you need heat in the right spot.
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Ron,
It sounds like you have one of the very worst stuck nipples that can be found. Believe me, I have sympathy as I've had to get out a dozen or more like that in the past at NSSA National Shoots.
Good Cheer had some excellent advice in his post above that I agree with completely. If that still doesn't work, cub45 is absolutely correct about using a fine tip flame.
SOME times it is helpful to apply some force to the nipple IF you have a substantial and correct fitting nipple wrench or socket that fits very well and rather tight. After you place either tight fitting nipple or socket on the nipple, you smack the wrench or socket with a wood, copper or lead mallet. This does not work all the time, though it works enough to try it.
With a really bad stuck nipple, it may take days before it loosens up when not using heat or cutting or drilling out the old nipple.
When I got stuck nipples out at the NSSA National Championship shoots, I only had 2-3 days at most to do it and sometimes only hours to get them out. Most of the worst ones were either original steel nipples that had been in the musket or over 100 years or steel ones that had been fired MANY shots through them and never been taken out of the muskets.
I bought nipple wrenches made by one of the NSSA shooters who really made good tight fitting ones and were made from quality steel and correctly hardened and annealed. They were not HC/PC in shape, having been made from drill rod with a hole drilled through them and another smaller diameter rod through the hole (to form a T handle) and just peened on each end to keep it from coming out, but they were incredibly tough.
I had what may be described as escalation of force techniques that started out with the lowest amount of force and worked upwards with more force as the list goes on. In the early years, I used penetrating oil and let it soak in for a few hours or few days, depending on the time I had before the shooter required the musket back. As better penetrating oils or PB Blaster came out, I used them. This was also in the time before one could get small cans of compressed air to cool or “freeze” the nipple.
1. Try tightening the nipple more or at least putting some force in a clockwise direction with one of those great quality nipple wrenches. Then with pressure holding down on the wrench, try to quickly "snap" loosen the nipples. This usually only worked on the Bronze/Ampco nipples, though.
2. Take the barrel off the musket and clamp it securely in a well padded vise. Take the quality nipple wrench (or good fitting socket) and place it on the nipple all the way on. Give it a couple good whacks on the end of the wrench or socket with a wood, plastic, copper or lead mallet. Now you can’t go overboard on this or you MAY wind up hammer welding the metal into the threads and especially with Ampco nipples. The impact sometimes loosened a stuck nipple.
3. Heat the nipple only with a fine tipped torch as cub45 mentioned. I made heat shields out of sheet brass to use when I did that (along with other such heat shields when I had to heat and rebend a Musket Hammer).
4. My last resort was to use a Dumore Handy Grinder with carbide cutting burs to cut the top of the nipple off and cut down into the body of the nipple below the surface of the barrel. That tool is described as “A Dremel Tool on Steroids.” The combination of cutting well down into the nipple and the vibration always allowed me to get the nipple out, though you have to be exceptionally careful not to cut into the threads of the barrel metal. I frequently used Cold Blue inside the nipple to ensure I did not cut into the threads, as that stuff would highlight even the very edge of barrel threads. I found that by cutting a sort of thick screw driver slot in the base of the nipple and a screwdriver I ground to shape with a THICK blade to do it, allowed me to get the nipples out easier than using “Easy Outs.”
The absolute worst case of a stuck nipple and the highest case of stress doing it, came one year at the Nationals on the night before the first day’s shooting. (We always got there one day early to set up the booth and then I set up my little “gun working area” in the back.) That night around 7:00 PM, a shooter showed up with a GORGEOUS original M1863 Springfield that had the nipple stuck in place. My jaw dropped when I saw it as it should have been in a museum and not on the firing line.
He told me he had bought it a few months before, but did not trust any gunsmith in Minnesota to get the nipple out and that’s why he saved it for me to do it, as I had removed stuck nipples for him and other shooters at past shoots. Of course I was flattered, but when he told me he needed it the next morning to shoot, I was not sure it could be done. I also did not want to leave any kind of mark on that superb condition original musket.
In those days, my “work bench” was a small wood indoor furniture table and my vise was a small screw clamp on type. Oh how I wanted my large work bench and vise for THAT gun as well as some others we worked on at the Nationals!! (Years later when we moved into the NSSA owned buildings, we built a substantial work bench with a larger vise in the rear of our booth.)
It took me about 2 ½ hours to get that nipple out using both heat and then cutting into the nipple body to get it out as I went VERY cautious on it and stopping frequently to remain in sharp focus. Of course a number of people also came by to “Kibitz” while I was doing it, to see “how it was coming along,” so that increased the already high state of stress. When I finally got the nipple out with not a single mark on the gun, it was like a Giant Weight had been lifted from my shoulders. The Owner showed up again about 15 minutes later after I had calmed down a good deal. Grin. Of course he was happy, but he was rather nonchalant about it as he had expected me to do it that well. Other very experienced shooters, who had been around while I was doing it, were really surprised at his reaction. A few of them talked to the owner to explain how difficult it was to do it the next day. So the day after that and after he had shot it in competition, the Owner came back and thanked me profusely. I told him I was just Very Glad and Very Relieved it came out when it did and thanked the Good Lord for His help on me doing it.
Gus
It sounds like you have one of the very worst stuck nipples that can be found. Believe me, I have sympathy as I've had to get out a dozen or more like that in the past at NSSA National Shoots.
Good Cheer had some excellent advice in his post above that I agree with completely. If that still doesn't work, cub45 is absolutely correct about using a fine tip flame.
SOME times it is helpful to apply some force to the nipple IF you have a substantial and correct fitting nipple wrench or socket that fits very well and rather tight. After you place either tight fitting nipple or socket on the nipple, you smack the wrench or socket with a wood, copper or lead mallet. This does not work all the time, though it works enough to try it.
With a really bad stuck nipple, it may take days before it loosens up when not using heat or cutting or drilling out the old nipple.
When I got stuck nipples out at the NSSA National Championship shoots, I only had 2-3 days at most to do it and sometimes only hours to get them out. Most of the worst ones were either original steel nipples that had been in the musket or over 100 years or steel ones that had been fired MANY shots through them and never been taken out of the muskets.
I bought nipple wrenches made by one of the NSSA shooters who really made good tight fitting ones and were made from quality steel and correctly hardened and annealed. They were not HC/PC in shape, having been made from drill rod with a hole drilled through them and another smaller diameter rod through the hole (to form a T handle) and just peened on each end to keep it from coming out, but they were incredibly tough.
I had what may be described as escalation of force techniques that started out with the lowest amount of force and worked upwards with more force as the list goes on. In the early years, I used penetrating oil and let it soak in for a few hours or few days, depending on the time I had before the shooter required the musket back. As better penetrating oils or PB Blaster came out, I used them. This was also in the time before one could get small cans of compressed air to cool or “freeze” the nipple.
1. Try tightening the nipple more or at least putting some force in a clockwise direction with one of those great quality nipple wrenches. Then with pressure holding down on the wrench, try to quickly "snap" loosen the nipples. This usually only worked on the Bronze/Ampco nipples, though.
2. Take the barrel off the musket and clamp it securely in a well padded vise. Take the quality nipple wrench (or good fitting socket) and place it on the nipple all the way on. Give it a couple good whacks on the end of the wrench or socket with a wood, plastic, copper or lead mallet. Now you can’t go overboard on this or you MAY wind up hammer welding the metal into the threads and especially with Ampco nipples. The impact sometimes loosened a stuck nipple.
3. Heat the nipple only with a fine tipped torch as cub45 mentioned. I made heat shields out of sheet brass to use when I did that (along with other such heat shields when I had to heat and rebend a Musket Hammer).
4. My last resort was to use a Dumore Handy Grinder with carbide cutting burs to cut the top of the nipple off and cut down into the body of the nipple below the surface of the barrel. That tool is described as “A Dremel Tool on Steroids.” The combination of cutting well down into the nipple and the vibration always allowed me to get the nipple out, though you have to be exceptionally careful not to cut into the threads of the barrel metal. I frequently used Cold Blue inside the nipple to ensure I did not cut into the threads, as that stuff would highlight even the very edge of barrel threads. I found that by cutting a sort of thick screw driver slot in the base of the nipple and a screwdriver I ground to shape with a THICK blade to do it, allowed me to get the nipples out easier than using “Easy Outs.”
The absolute worst case of a stuck nipple and the highest case of stress doing it, came one year at the Nationals on the night before the first day’s shooting. (We always got there one day early to set up the booth and then I set up my little “gun working area” in the back.) That night around 7:00 PM, a shooter showed up with a GORGEOUS original M1863 Springfield that had the nipple stuck in place. My jaw dropped when I saw it as it should have been in a museum and not on the firing line.
He told me he had bought it a few months before, but did not trust any gunsmith in Minnesota to get the nipple out and that’s why he saved it for me to do it, as I had removed stuck nipples for him and other shooters at past shoots. Of course I was flattered, but when he told me he needed it the next morning to shoot, I was not sure it could be done. I also did not want to leave any kind of mark on that superb condition original musket.
In those days, my “work bench” was a small wood indoor furniture table and my vise was a small screw clamp on type. Oh how I wanted my large work bench and vise for THAT gun as well as some others we worked on at the Nationals!! (Years later when we moved into the NSSA owned buildings, we built a substantial work bench with a larger vise in the rear of our booth.)
It took me about 2 ½ hours to get that nipple out using both heat and then cutting into the nipple body to get it out as I went VERY cautious on it and stopping frequently to remain in sharp focus. Of course a number of people also came by to “Kibitz” while I was doing it, to see “how it was coming along,” so that increased the already high state of stress. When I finally got the nipple out with not a single mark on the gun, it was like a Giant Weight had been lifted from my shoulders. The Owner showed up again about 15 minutes later after I had calmed down a good deal. Grin. Of course he was happy, but he was rather nonchalant about it as he had expected me to do it that well. Other very experienced shooters, who had been around while I was doing it, were really surprised at his reaction. A few of them talked to the owner to explain how difficult it was to do it the next day. So the day after that and after he had shot it in competition, the Owner came back and thanked me profusely. I told him I was just Very Glad and Very Relieved it came out when it did and thanked the Good Lord for His help on me doing it.
Gus
I very much respect folks like you with the knowledge and capability of working with such issues!
I would like to do the freeze,thaw.... repeatedly, but I don't have a stand alone freezer that would take the barrel.
The rifle is soaking in PBblaster and will for another few days. Then, I will try tightening followed by loosening.
If that doesn't work, since I don't yet have the musket caps, I thought I might leave the rifle as is until I can get it to a skilled expert at the local muzzleloading club. My hope is that I can find someone as skilled as you.
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience!
Ron
I would like to do the freeze,thaw.... repeatedly, but I don't have a stand alone freezer that would take the barrel.
The rifle is soaking in PBblaster and will for another few days. Then, I will try tightening followed by loosening.
If that doesn't work, since I don't yet have the musket caps, I thought I might leave the rifle as is until I can get it to a skilled expert at the local muzzleloading club. My hope is that I can find someone as skilled as you.
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience!
Ron
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Ron,
In case the nipple does not come free with repeated attempts, that is a good idea about checking with your local muzzle loading club to see if someone there has experience pulling stuck nipples. Even if there is not, they may know of someone who can do it. It isn't rocket science and probably a lot of gunsmiths or machinists could do it for you.
You are most welcome and good luck.
Gus
In case the nipple does not come free with repeated attempts, that is a good idea about checking with your local muzzle loading club to see if someone there has experience pulling stuck nipples. Even if there is not, they may know of someone who can do it. It isn't rocket science and probably a lot of gunsmiths or machinists could do it for you.
You are most welcome and good luck.
Gus
Go to your nearest tool store (Sears Craftsman) and buy a 1/4" drive socket. 1/4" or 5/16" would be a good size and 6 point would be better than 12 point. Then you buy an Allen wrench that fits the hex end of the socket. The 1/4" drive square end will fit the square shank on the nipple and now you will have a bulletproof nipple wrench. In the event you have one of the nipples that doesn't have a square shank you will be out of luck the first time but after you get yours out always replace it with the type having a 1/4" square shank. Cub45 is dead on about the heat except you don't have the room to get a pair of Vise Grips on the nipple. An oxy-acetylene outfit with a welding/brazing tip is a great addition to anyone's shop as it allows one to get the needed heat on the part without heating everything else around it like you would do with a propane or Mapp torch.
If all else fails take it to a body or machine shop, have them put a snug fitting nut on the round part of the nipple, weld or braze it in place and turn the nipple out with a socket.
Triple check to be sure the barrel doesn't have a load in it before trying any of the above because if it does it will be unloaded before you finish the procedure!
Very nice looking piece and you got it at a bargain price even with all the work you are putting in it.
If all else fails take it to a body or machine shop, have them put a snug fitting nut on the round part of the nipple, weld or braze it in place and turn the nipple out with a socket.
Triple check to be sure the barrel doesn't have a load in it before trying any of the above because if it does it will be unloaded before you finish the procedure!
Very nice looking piece and you got it at a bargain price even with all the work you are putting in it.
I should add that you can buy nipples that will fit and take #11 caps if you want to go that way. If you can't find musket caps locally they can be ordered though you will have to pay the hazmat fee on them. The local BP dealer just received 1,000,000 RWS top hat musket caps (about $70/thousand) so there is no such thing as a shortage. He is also expecting to receive 5,000 pounds of GOEX this week and he ships nationwide.
I had checked for a load previously using the length of rod that goes into the bore, but your post made me go back to check again.
This time, I used my el-cheapo, Chinese made borescope. It has a resolution somewhere between poor and terrible, but it was perfect for this duty as I could see the end of the bore.
I have been using the socket extension with the square shank and square hole. I can put a 1/4 inch open ended wrench on the shank. For more leverage, I have used a vise grip. I don't apply all the available torque because I don't like surprises.
You are correct. This was a successful purchase. I have been very fortunate stopping in this pawn shop and found this T/C Cougar there a year ago:
I have found some minor pitting down toward the nipple end of the bore of the Springfield, but it is not too bad. There are a few rings that go around the circumference of the bore. They are uniform all the way around. I saw the pits and 2 rings using the borescope.
Ron
This time, I used my el-cheapo, Chinese made borescope. It has a resolution somewhere between poor and terrible, but it was perfect for this duty as I could see the end of the bore.
I have been using the socket extension with the square shank and square hole. I can put a 1/4 inch open ended wrench on the shank. For more leverage, I have used a vise grip. I don't apply all the available torque because I don't like surprises.
You are correct. This was a successful purchase. I have been very fortunate stopping in this pawn shop and found this T/C Cougar there a year ago:
I have found some minor pitting down toward the nipple end of the bore of the Springfield, but it is not too bad. There are a few rings that go around the circumference of the bore. They are uniform all the way around. I saw the pits and 2 rings using the borescope.
Ron
May I inquire about the particular BP shop?hawkeye2 said:
Thanks,
Ron
Jackie Venskoske, known him for about 38 years, great person. He knows all the laws and just how much you can own in your state and will ship up to the max. He does some farming and other things so he isn't always available when you call and is very busy on weekends when the N-SSA is holding a skirmish, just keep trying. I just noticed the caps are now $78/1,000. I've used his lube for PRB and minnies, works well. If you order be sure to ask if he has any of his bumper stickers still avaliable.
http://blackpowderva.com/
http://blackpowderva.com/
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Thank you, Hawkeye2.
Ron
Ron
leadzbetter
32 Cal.
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Can anyone who has owned this rifle share their loads they've used? I just bought one for a price I couldn't refuse. Really looking forward to shooting it.
Hello Ron,
If I may suggest, as one of the previous posters suggested, soak the breech area in 50/50 mix of acetone & auto transmission oil.
Then heat the nipple to cherry red heat slip on the square socket and the nipple will come out.
But here is the trick heat the nipple with a stick welder ????
Put the grounding clamp on the bottom of the barrel, where it will not show any contact.
Then put a copper rod in the welding rod holder.
Turn on the welder to the highest amp setting.
Hold the copper rod on the nipple, till it turns cherry red, be quick with the socket and your nipple will come out without breaking.
That nipple will turn cherry red very quickly so be ready for it.
You won't get hurt, but it is handy for someone to help, to be a spare set of hands.
I would never use vise grips!
The hex key & socket is a great idea!
I would wear good heavy leather gloves, to prevent burns.
Fred
If I may suggest, as one of the previous posters suggested, soak the breech area in 50/50 mix of acetone & auto transmission oil.
Then heat the nipple to cherry red heat slip on the square socket and the nipple will come out.
But here is the trick heat the nipple with a stick welder ????
Put the grounding clamp on the bottom of the barrel, where it will not show any contact.
Then put a copper rod in the welding rod holder.
Turn on the welder to the highest amp setting.
Hold the copper rod on the nipple, till it turns cherry red, be quick with the socket and your nipple will come out without breaking.
That nipple will turn cherry red very quickly so be ready for it.
You won't get hurt, but it is handy for someone to help, to be a spare set of hands.
I would never use vise grips!
The hex key & socket is a great idea!
I would wear good heavy leather gloves, to prevent burns.
Fred
On second thought, I think you should send that mal-functioning old gun to me. :grin:
Fred
Fred
I am wrapping it up now to send to you, Fred. :wink: :grin:
The nipple is not in bad shape. It is just stuck.
I don't have the welding equipment, but a friend does. The advantage to taking it to my friend is that if anything breaks, I can always blame him.
Thanks,
Ron
The nipple is not in bad shape. It is just stuck.
I don't have the welding equipment, but a friend does. The advantage to taking it to my friend is that if anything breaks, I can always blame him.
Thanks,
Ron
Thats what friends are for!
I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was going to blame you. :grin:
Hello again Ron,
Be sure to apply some oil on the nipple edge ( screws thread ) while attempting to remove the nipple.
Fred
Be sure to apply some oil on the nipple edge ( screws thread ) while attempting to remove the nipple.
Fred
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