Powder charge. How much powder do you use.

[Dale Allen Raby]

Good you got that figured , but my 12 inch 1-28 twist muzzy with off shore (highly regarded) barrel shooting 80-90 gr OE 3 F or 75 gr weighed sub (BH 209)gets a Great Plains 50 cal staying in 1/2 a pie plate @ 200 yds as long as I can stand the cold off a bench .And not for nothing don't say any thing about wasted powder ! That would start another discussion with the pristine 4inch of white snow and my chrono !!/Ed

Check out this link: P-Max black powder internal ballistics

This is a fairly sophisticated velocity calculator for black powder. I am curious to see the ballpark difference between your 80 - 90 grain charge of OE with the GP bullet vs. my 30 grain charge with round ball. I'd do it myself, but I don't know your bullet weight. 12" barrels are fun to play with.

 

[stikshooter]

Check out this link: P-Max black powder internal ballistics

This is a fairly sophisticated velocity calculator for black powder. I am curious to see the ballpark difference between your 80 - 90 grain charge of OE with the GP bullet vs. my 30 grain charge with round ball. I'd do it myself, but I don't know your bullet weight. 12" barrels are fun to play with.

401 gr in pure lead ,afraid it is not a apples and apples comparison ,I can elaborate in a PM if you interested /thanks Ed

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

401 gr in pure lead ,afraid it is not a apples and apples comparison ,I can elaborate in a PM if you interested /thanks Ed

Sure, I'd be interested in your view. I plugged in your data and you are getting significantly better performance levels, which makes sense as you are burning three times the powder with a slightly lighter projectile that has a better seal and a better coefficient of ballistics. Bet that really thumps the shoulder though.

 

[Bullit]

As I read through various post, I'm always amazed how much powder is poured down a muzzleloader barrel. The general rule I was taught by my ol' grandpa' back in the 60's on the farm is caliber of the gun +/- 20%. Or put the ball in your palm and pour powder 'til it covers the ball. Reading post and at the range I see shooters loading with 90 to 120 grains powder in their smoke pole. IMHO, that's a lot of powder. Of course, not preaching to anyone on this forum, trying to discuss this with shooters only makes them defensive and angry.
I try to explain it like this. The tried-and-true 45/70. 45 cal. lead bullet pushed by 70 gr. black powder. With muzzle energy of more than 1,600 foot-pounds, the 405 grain FP bullet hit a distance of 200 yards and flew at 1,330 feet per second. This bullet easily killed bears, moose, and bison.
My personal experience has been with me wife's rifle. .45 cal. 36" Green Mountain Barrel. Patch and round ball pushed by 45 gr. 3F. last year I shot a buck at 125 yards face on. The ball went in the chest, bounced off the spine, smashed the rear femur at the hip and out the back butt. The other benefit of the lower charge is less smoke and flame. I never lost sight of the deer. Not that he went too far.
I personally use a .50 cal. 42" Green Mountain Barrel, pushed by 65 gr. 2F. I use the same powder in the pan and the barrel. It's never failed to drop whatever I'm shooting at.
I bought my grandson an in-line, (scared of a flintlock). .50 cal. however, we use a .45 cal. lead ball sabot pushed by 1 triple 7 50/50 pellet. He dropped his 1st deer with it this year.
So, after all that, my question is why so much powder? Does all that powder burn before it exits the 24" and 28" barrels?
I'm not trying to start an argument, just gathering information.
Semper Fi.

I hold my 50 cal. Lyman GPR PRB at 70 gr., keeping my shot at or under 100 yds. Preferably under, the more under, the better. In fact, I don't mind powder burns.

 

[bearingsmith]

P-Max black powder internal ballistics

Thank you for this link.

 

[longcruise]

If you use the correct amount of propellant, the ticks will drop off when you whack a deer.

Would be just my luck to use the wrong lube and turn them into monsters. Check out the movie "Them"! We ever after could only kill deer with a Tommy Gun.

 

[CapPopper]

That idea about peeing in a mason jar is out dated ,I use a Gatorade bottle at least until I heard some folks now pee in the false scrape they make ,says the deer are attracted the same as deer pee and show the deer
(some nice bucks) too!/Ed

I've never noticed the deer caring at all. During the rut I would be surprised if it didn't set them off since they way they smell the world is nothing like us.

As for the op I run 70-80 grs in my .58 colonial smoothbore. I've shot bigger charges and lighter charges with no discernable difference in accuracy. Same with patches. Doesn't matter if it's tight or barely snug gun shoots the same so of course I lean towards loose. Good for about 2" groups at 50. Haven't really shot it on paper any farther.

The .32 powder charge varies greatly with patch material and lube. Seems 30grs with ballistol dry ticking patch (.015) shoots the best. I've used same lube with 40grs and a .018 cotton duck patch and it will put them in one hole but it's a bear to load. Switch to 50/50 beeswax/olive oil and the gun is happier around 20grs and does not shoot as good at all. Still squirrel worth at 25 yards but barely.

Powder charge is for accuracy at the range you intend to shoot. Round balls drop off so fast that the power factor doesn't really matter. Shot placement is everything. Hit them right with a thrown rock and it's most likely enough to do the job. A 4 bore to the ear is significantly less lethal than a sharpened stick to the jugular.

 

[Dartwick]

Only 2 posters in the thread listed chrono results I think.
But based on their numbers it looks like hotter loads pay off well, even in .45s, if projectile energy is your goal.

Obviously there will be diminishing returns at some point. But at 90 to 100 grains the return is good.

 

[N.Y. Yankee]

I start with the maximum load the manufacturer recommends for the projectile Im shooting. If the accuracy is good, so be it. I only use my guns for hunting, rarly any competition, and recoil is not bad with a roundball. If accuracy is not good, I go down 5 grains at a time and test it. When I can shoot a good group, im done. Thats the load. Write it in my notebook for that gun.

 

[tenngun]

Only 2 posters in the thread listed chrono results I think.
But based on their numbers it looks like hotter loads pay off well, even in .45s, if projectile energy is your goal.

Obviously there will be diminishing returns at some point. But at 90 to 100 grains the return is good.

What’s the return?
Deer killed with sixty grains three f behind PRB is not less dead then one killed by 110 grains behind some sort of conical.
A through and through in lethal area in chest much of neck, or spine is DRT. Short of a Napoleon deer will not be thrown off their feet like some sort of action movie.
A modern high powered gun needs a great deal of power to get a mushroom to the shot and gives hydraulic effect that a low velocity ml, even loaded for bear, can not do. Unless you’re shooting at five yards any ball is crap as a projectile, conicals are better but in big sizes .45 and up you have still made a substantial loss of velocity.
Get close, under a hundred yards, fifty is even better, twentyfive is great. Be sure of placement. Anywhere in a dinner plate sized target in frontal chest, desert plate is better, you get venison for dinner. And deer dies quickly

 

[stikshooter]

What’s the return?
Deer killed with sixty grains three f behind PRB is not less dead then one killed by 110 grains behind some sort of conical.
A through and through in lethal area in chest much of neck, or spine is DRT. Short of a Napoleon deer will not be thrown off their feet like some sort of action movie.
A modern high powered gun needs a great deal of power to get a mushroom to the shot and gives hydraulic effect that a low velocity ml, even loaded for bear, can not do. Unless you’re shooting at five yards any ball is crap as a projectile, conicals are better but in big sizes .45 and up you have still made a substantial loss of velocity.
Get close, under a hundred yards, fifty is even better, twentyfive is great. Be sure of placement. Anywhere in a dinner plate sized target in frontal chest, desert plate is better, you get venison for dinner. And deer dies quickly

Your patched RB (or mine) runs out of steam quik While my conical sitting on 90 gr of OE 3F does the job (blood) on both sides @150 yds ! This one this yr @ 114 (ranged)yds and typical with my 54 Lyman Plains conical shot out of a tree all day set 28 degrees 2 days before season end/Ed

 

[tenngun]

Myself, I don’t take photos or keep trophies of dead animals. Not slapping anyone who does, I just don’t
This little lady was in the pot the night. From a 70 grain three f in a smoothie she didn’t make it back to the tree line

 

[Dartwick]

What’s the return?
Deer killed with sixty grains three f behind PRB is not less dead then one killed by 110 grains behind some sort of conical.
A through and through in lethal area in chest much of neck, or spine is DRT. Short of a Napoleon deer will not be thrown off their feet like some sort of action movie.
A modern high powered gun needs a great deal of power to get a mushroom to the shot and gives hydraulic effect that a low velocity ml, even loaded for bear, can not do. Unless you’re shooting at five yards any ball is crap as a projectile, conicals are better but in big sizes .45 and up you have still made a substantial loss of velocity.
Get close, under a hundred yards, fifty is even better, twentyfive is great. Be sure of placement. Anywhere in a dinner plate sized target in frontal chest, desert plate is better, you get venison for dinner. And deer dies quickly

Well for the .45 A 38% increase in powder gave a 31% increase in energy(the .50 was similar).

The bullet stops penetrating when it run out of energy because it takes energy to make the hole.

If you have never had a deer fail to drop dead or never had a lung shot fail to make an exit wound - then you dont need more energy /salute.

Some people have had different experiences.

 

[tenngun]

But how is that down range?
A .50, with a fifty grain 3 f charge in a 26” barrel you get about 1350 fps
Increase the barrel size you get faster.. just going to 43” you add a 150 fps to about 1500
But 50 grains ain’t a killer load.
A 130 grain charge can give you 2100 fps, nearly mach 2
Again long barrel really helps. In a 43” barrel you break mach 2 at almost 2300 FPS.. whoa
But what do you get at a hundred yards
1400 fps slows to about 900
2300? 1300 at 100 yards your bang for the buck( no pun intended goes down.
150 yards? 2300 slows to 1000, 1500 slows to 800
Both those charges are extreme at the
edges
Let’s go to 70 in a 32”. I don’t like them SBR myself, but a lot of the production guns come around that.
70 gets you about 1650 at the muzzle, where a 100 grain gets you just shy of 2000. 350 fps for thirty grains. But what do you get down range?
1600 at one hundred yard slows to 950
2000 slows to 1100. The advantage is cut in half and if you did try a long shot, what do you get? 920 vs 817
Now my mantra is get close. A .50 at MV of 1600 fps is 1200 fps a 100 fps faster then a 2000mv at a hundred yards
In a .54 it’s telling. 120 grains in a 43” barrel is 1900 fps a 28”54 with 70 grains is just shy of 1400 fps. At a hundred yards what’s the differnce? 900 vs1100

 

[Dartwick]

Im not paying any attention to that number jumble.

The load with 31% more energy at the barrel is going to still have a significantly higher energy than the lighter load at 75 yards.

As I said - maybe this isnt not an issue for you - which is great.
But this forum is full of posts by people talking about how they didnt get exit holes on double lung shots, so for at least some of them more energy could help.

 

[Howard Pippin]

Myself, I don’t take photos or keep trophies of dead animals. Not slapping anyone who does, I just don’t
This little lady was in the pot the night. From a 70 grain three f in a smoothie she didn’t make it back to the tree line View attachment 193262

I am one of those who always takes a picture, and I have a scrapbook with pictures and I'm glad I did, especially of my children when they hunted as it is some of my nicer memories. I did save a couple of very large horns, mounted them on a plaque and they hang in my garage. I did that for each child's first deer, and for my grandchildren that hunted. It is something that we shared together. I never had one mounted by a professional.
squint

 

[jd945043]

Once I find what shoots well in my guns I get a measure for that load and that's fine for that gun. For My 50's 75 grains seem to be the sweet spot.

 

[ETipp]

Dang. I'm afraid to say now

When I was working on a load for my 20ga Fusil de Chasse 70gr of 3F seemed to work best with RB.
50yds
View attachment 192066


But in my .45 with 42" Colerain barrel I'm shooting 90gr of 3F with a RB. I just kept working my way up until the group opened, then settled on 90. Recoil seems light to me.
50yds. It drops about 3" at 100, but I can't find a pic of that for some reason. It must be in a different folder.
View attachment 192069


Other guns I'm trying to shoot what I've read. And is accurate.
60gr+filler in my 1859 Sharps
3@50 w/ scope
View attachment 192071

95gr of 2F in my Brown Bess (to account for priming and modern BP).
Nice kick. Still need to shoot it off a bench and get used to it to see what an accurate load might be, but I'm not expecting much. In that case I might throttle it down if it's only a 4" group gun/shooter combination.
So no pics of that one yet

And that, sir, is the best way to go about it IMO. I have followed that idea for many years, both center fire and ML. Work up a hunting load that provides the hottest and best accuracy that the rifle likes for the projectile I plan on using. The rest is up to me and/or my limitations.

With that said, years ago I remember reading an article somewhere. In that article it stated that the frontiersman would download for small game and load heavier if they thought they would be hunting bigger critters, or possibly defending themselves against those that were out to lift their hair.

Taking into consideration that they could only carry a certain amount of balls and powder, it is fully understandable why they would download to conserve.

 

[BlackRock52]

Old timer told me(Now a 71 year old timer) back in the late 70's to use 1.5 times the caliber. For my T/C Hawken .45 that's 67.5 gr and I use 2F Swiss with a PRB. (Twist is 1:48). I round up to 70 gr and she loves that load. I get 3/4" group at 50 yds consistently. When it warms up to more than 10*F I am gonna try some Maxis. My son just got a Hawken .50 and plans to start with 75 gr. Swiss 2F. No fancy instruments, just 1.5 times caliber....

 

[Omega Vision]

70gr FFF roundball 32" barrel
85gr FFF sabot/XTP inline