Powder charge. How much powder do you use.

[smokepolehall]

For myself accuracy is more important than raw power. A person can call them squibs, i have killed a truck load of tree rats with those type of loads. Most likely have killed a dump truck load of tick toters through the years also. Been doing it for a tad over 60 years now. None have complained to me of under powered loads.

 

[ord sgt]

For target shooting, I use 50 grains FFFg in my Green Mountain barreled long rifles and my Getz barreled. Jaegar, except for my .50 calibre Colerain barrel. I find that 40 grains FFFg works best.
I did kill a deer with 80 grains FFFg. Roundball went completely through the deer.

 

[stephenprops1]

I shoot with The Ohio Valley Muzzleloading Gun Club. I use a 45 caliber T/C Hawken or a Perersoli Missouri River rifle. I started out using 70 grains of FFF and an old timer recommended I reduce my load. I tried 60, 50 and 40 grains. I get good accuracy with 40 grains of FFF and that is my standard load for our shooting matches. (I use .495 patched round balls.)

I just saw a mistake I made in this post. I actually use a .445 patched round ball. --- When I shot a 50 caliber, then I used a .495 PRB. ---- SORRY!

 

[Trooper]

I just saw a mistake I made in this post. I actually use a .445 patched round ball. --- When I shot a 50 caliber, then I used a .495 PRB. ---- SORRY!

We all make them bro, no need to apologize

 

[Steve Wagner]

I agree. We see 2500-3500 fps on modern guns then 1300-2000 on an ml and think we need go big or go home.
A .45/70 in of itself not a good comparison. A cartridge uses powder more efficiently.
When I got into this I loaded for bear. But found it just wasn’t needed.
While I wouldn’t want to go after elk or buff with a .50 or .45 using ball, we know plenty of these animals were killed by these calibers.
In my TFC I found 70 three f or 80 two f works well and makes meat.
60 in my .45 shoots best, 70 in my 28 bore shoots best. And makes holes on both sides. Of deer in range.
Bess shot pretty low grade powder back in the day, as compared to civilian powder.
No formula seems to work. 35 grains in a .36 is a mite heavy. 50 in a .50 might be a bit lite.
1/3 ball weight works, sort of about 20 in a .36, 60 in a .50, 110 in a .62 getting heavy 180 in a bess, more then I want.
Just shoot for your best group and it will put meat on the table

Hi tenngun. I don't have a 45 cal ML, only 50's. And I do have 2 45/70's and do quite a bit of loading for both of them. But I did notice that when pushing projectiles of the same weight, even in a 50 ML to 45/70 comparison [I know, that's a sin.], the data and my own experience says that velocities are quite comparable. A 50 roundball weighs close to 180 grains so, I am guessing that a 45 rb weighs about 150/160. Of course, that in no way compares to the standard 405, 45/70 grain payload but if you loaded a 45/70 w a 150/160 grain pill [admittedly very impractical], I would think the velocity would comp w a 45 ML prb if both used the same volume of powder. The data I have seen for a 50 hdy Great Plains, 385 bullet shows velocities quite similar to the ones I get w my 45/70's using projectiles of similar weight and 70 grains.

So, even though heretical for many, the comparisons can be useful when they are made apples to apples. [loads and bullet weights] It should be kept in mind that the 1st brass cartridge development was done by people who, previously, only had ML experience and they were making comparisons and predictions based on the physics of black powder and lead. While details in difference of design cause variations that have to be taken into account, there is no magic wall separating the principles involved in this. If the OP erred, it was in not specifying equal bullet weights per charge. Open to criticism here. Maybe I am missing something.

As to the OP's question on charges, even the 45/70 405 was found wanting by many and shortly, along came every imaginable variable of charge and bullet weight in .45 up to [and probably past] 120 grains of black. Of course, the larger variants had diminishing returns and, overall and in time, the 45/70 won out while some variants [90, 110, 120] still hang on to this day. I think, even in the huge variants, it was quite likely that, in the 1800's more 45/70 cases were fired in them than the cartridge the rifles were chambered for. [availability] And I think his basic thrust about huge charges of black powder for ML's [and even substitutes] is mostly warranted. It seems that somewhere around 70 grains or so there is a sweet spot for accuracy in these rifles. While a bit more power never hurts, accuracy kills. But some do find the accurate medicine they want with bigger charges and they should not have to justify that preference. SW

 

[tenngun]

Hi tenngun. I don't have a 45 cal ML, only 50's. And I do have 2 45/70's and do quite a bit of loading for both of them. But I did notice that when pushing projectiles of the same weight, even in a 50 ML to 45/70 comparison [I know, that's a sin.], the data and my own experience says that velocities are quite comparable. A 50 roundball weighs close to 180 grains so, I am guessing that a 45 rb weighs about 150/160. Of course, that in no way compares to the standard 405, 45/70 grain payload but if you loaded a 45/70 w a 150/160 grain pill [admittedly very impractical], I would think the velocity would comp w a 45 ML prb if both used the same volume of powder. The data I have seen for a 50 hdy Great Plains, 385 bullet shows velocities quite similar to the ones I get w my 45/70's using projectiles of similar weight and 70 grains.

So, even though heretical for many, the comparisons can be useful when they are made apples to apples. [loads and bullet weights] It should be kept in mind that the 1st brass cartridge development was done by people who, previously, only had ML experience and they were making comparisons and predictions based on the physics of black powder and lead. While details in difference of design cause variations that have to be taken into account, there is no magic wall separating the principles involved in this. If the OP erred, it was in not specifying equal bullet weights per charge. Open to criticism here. Maybe I am missing something.

As to the OP's question on charges, even the 45/70 405 was found wanting by many and shortly, along came every imaginable variable of charge and bullet weight in .45 up to [and probably past] 120 grains of black. Of course, the larger variants had diminishing returns and, overall and in time, the 45/70 won out while some variants [90, 110, 120] still hang on to this day. I think, even in the huge variants, it was quite likely that, in the 1800's more 45/70 cases were fired in them than the cartridge the rifles were chambered for. [availability] And I think his basic thrust about huge charges of black powder for ML's [and even substitutes] is mostly warranted. It seems that somewhere around 70 grains or so there is a sweet spot for accuracy in these rifles. While a bit more power never hurts, accuracy kills. But some do find the accurate medicine they want with bigger charges and they should not have to justify that preference. SW

I think you will find cartridges use the powder more effectively
A.45 ball( .440,.445,.447) weigh in the 130 range. A .36 about 65, .45 130, .58 260 I think this doubling of weight was the reason those calibers were common)
Anyway a 45 with a 40” barrel will get 1924 fps on a g-o 70 grain 3f load, 27 fps per grain.
A 230 grain maxi ball, a little shy of twice ball weight and around half of a 45/70 gets 1686 fps about 24 fps per grain. But when we look at muzzle energy we see a different story. Ball loses energy quickly. So even though we don’t shoot deer at the muzzle this number tells us how well the charge was used.
A round ball gets 1091 ft pounds of 70 grain, 15 ft pounds per grain of powder. Where as the maxi gets 1449, 24 ft pounds per grain of powder
It takes a .54 to get an old style minie ball in 45-70 weight range. 410 grains in old style minie.
70 grains gets 1249 fps, lower velocity then the 45-70 but not a big loss. And at 1418 ft pounds it comes in lower than the smaller maxi in energy.
The 45 is able to convert powder energy to bullet energy better, sort of. You have to throw in a bundle of other factors. But even if you loaded ball in to a cartridge your performance in terms of velocity and Ft pounds of energy would be up over an ml

 

[Mike in FL]

I use 60 grains under a prb in my .50 flinter. I use that rifle and load for ALL hunting. To me, accuracy is way more important than ft lbs.

 

[Sun City]

I use anywhere from 100-140 grains 2F depending on whether I'm shooting 50-58 caliber! Why? Because over a long period of time it gives me the best accuracy available! What works for me won't work for you!

 

[Rob M.]

As I read through various post, I'm always amazed how much powder is poured down a muzzleloader barrel. The general rule I was taught by my ol' grandpa' back in the 60's on the farm is caliber of the gun +/- 20%. Or put the ball in your palm and pour powder 'til it covers the ball. Reading post and at the range I see shooters loading with 90 to 120 grains powder in their smoke pole. IMHO, that's a lot of powder. Of course, not preaching to anyone on this forum, trying to discuss this with shooters only makes them defensive and angry.
I try to explain it like this. The tried-and-true 45/70. 45 cal. lead bullet pushed by 70 gr. black powder. With muzzle energy of more than 1,600 foot-pounds, the 405 grain FP bullet hit a distance of 200 yards and flew at 1,330 feet per second. This bullet easily killed bears, moose, and bison.
My personal experience has been with me wife's rifle. .45 cal. 36" Green Mountain Barrel. Patch and round ball pushed by 45 gr. 3F. last year I shot a buck at 125 yards face on. The ball went in the chest, bounced off the spine, smashed the rear femur at the hip and out the back butt. The other benefit of the lower charge is less smoke and flame. I never lost sight of the deer. Not that he went too far.
I personally use a .50 cal. 42" Green Mountain Barrel, pushed by 65 gr. 2F. I use the same powder in the pan and the barrel. It's never failed to drop whatever I'm shooting at.
I bought my grandson an in-line, (scared of a flintlock). .50 cal. however, we use a .45 cal. lead ball sabot pushed by 1 triple 7 50/50 pellet. He dropped his 1st deer with it this year.
So, after all that, my question is why so much powder? Does all that powder burn before it exits the 24" and 28" barrels?
I'm not trying to start an argument, just gathering information.
Semper Fi.

LOL !! There's a can of worms ! It funny to hear folks talkin about how bad their guns kick or pop them in the face too ...then you find out they are shooting 80-90 gr. of powder . Dont get me wrong , to each their own ... and a few of these guys report phenomenal accuracy with their smoothbores at extended ranges with large powder charges too so ...go with their bad selves but you'll never catch me shooting anymore than 65 gr. ,and its usually 60 gr., in my trade gun , never saw the need ... Experimentation is fun though ... take care

 

[SOLANCO]

If I want to use more than 60-65 gr I'll get out my swivel gun or Stokes mortar.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

As I read through various post, I'm always amazed how much powder is poured down a muzzleloader barrel. The general rule I was taught by my ol' grandpa' back in the 60's on the farm is caliber of the gun +/- 20%. Or put the ball in your palm and pour powder 'til it covers the ball. Reading post and at the range I see shooters loading with 90 to 120 grains powder in their smoke pole. IMHO, that's a lot of powder. Of course, not preaching to anyone on this forum, trying to discuss this with shooters only makes them defensive and angry.
I try to explain it like this. The tried-and-true 45/70. 45 cal. lead bullet pushed by 70 gr. black powder. With muzzle energy of more than 1,600 foot-pounds, the 405 grain FP bullet hit a distance of 200 yards and flew at 1,330 feet per second. This bullet easily killed bears, moose, and bison.
My personal experience has been with me wife's rifle. .45 cal. 36" Green Mountain Barrel. Patch and round ball pushed by 45 gr. 3F. last year I shot a buck at 125 yards face on. The ball went in the chest, bounced off the spine, smashed the rear femur at the hip and out the back butt. The other benefit of the lower charge is less smoke and flame. I never lost sight of the deer. Not that he went too far.
I personally use a .50 cal. 42" Green Mountain Barrel, pushed by 65 gr. 2F. I use the same powder in the pan and the barrel. It's never failed to drop whatever I'm shooting at.
I bought my grandson an in-line, (scared of a flintlock). .50 cal. however, we use a .45 cal. lead ball sabot pushed by 1 triple 7 50/50 pellet. He dropped his 1st deer with it this year.
So, after all that, my question is why so much powder? Does all that powder burn before it exits the 24" and 28" barrels?
I'm not trying to start an argument, just gathering information.
Semper Fi.

Interesting thing is I use a spent 4570 casing for a powder measure because filled to the top it is exactly 70grs. With a bullet it must be something like 60grs of powder.

 

[ETipp]

20 grains of 3F for my beloved Crockett Squirrel rifle.

80 grains of 3F for my .50 New Englander pushing a Maxi Ball.

Yet to be determined with my .54 GPR pushing a RB.

 

[Kansas Jake]

Not weighing but using my adjustable measure I get around 80 grains in a 45-70 case. I use them to hold charges with a small cork stopper.

 

[JamesA]

My goal is accuracy. The loads I use are generally at the lower end of the scale of suggested loads. My .58 caliber CVA rifle likes about 75 grains of Hodgden's Select 2FG and a patched .562 dia. round ball. The patching is mattress ticking. The recoil is a "push" rather than a kick. Unfortunately, I am still working on loads for the other black powder firearms. I thought I had the loads worked out for the .50 cal. Hawken but it seems to vary on any day ending with a "y". The .44 caliber 1860 New Model Colt, it's fun to shoot as long as my life doesn't depend on it. The single shot pistol .44 cal...... well... it looks nice.

 

[PastorB]

I use 60 grains of 3F (real black or sub, don't care) in about everything from. 40 to .58 caliber. Does whatever I want it to do, from punching targets to punching deer and bear. In my smoothbores, 20 gauge and up, I use 70 to 80 grains of 2F, and 25% more shot by volume. If I was hunting larger game, I might bump up to 70 or 80 grains in my .54's and .58's, but those days are in my rear view mirror.

 

[Hiddeninsmoke]

Interesting thing is I use a spent 4570 casing for a powder measure because filled to the top it is exactly 70grs. With a bullet it must be something like 60grs of powder.

 

[Hiddeninsmoke]

With small variations based on grain size, black power burns at a fixed rate. What needs to be determined is the amount of powder that will burn in the barrel of your rifle without any leftover to burn beyond the muzzle. The variable affecting the calculation is the caliber of the bore. So, for a .45 caliber barrel, 32 inches long, 70 grains was determined to be the "no waste" amount of black powder. There is also a slight difference in the amount of powder to be used to accomodate heavy loads as there is a bit greater initial backpressure (time delay) to move the load down the barrel. Once you have determined the no waste powder load for your rifle, you can slowly back the powder down to determine what is best for your rifle and load.

 

[Flintlock Whiskey]

With small variations based on grain size, black power burns at a fixed rate. What needs to be determined is the amount of powder that will burn in the barrel of your rifle without any leftover to burn beyond the muzzle. The variable affecting the calculation is the caliber of the bore. So, for a .45 caliber barrel, 32 inches long, 70 grains was determined to be the "no waste" amount of black powder. There is also a slight difference in the amount of powder to be used to accomodate heavy loads as there is a bit greater initial backpressure (time delay) to move the load down the barrel. Once you have determined the no waste powder load for your rifle, you can slowly back the powder down to determine what is best for your rifle and load.

Are there tables or calculators for determining this?

 

[kelvinator]

Are there tables or calculators for determining this?

Try this.
https://www.p-max.uk/cgi-bin/black_powder.cgi

 

[Freedom]

Try this.
https://www.p-max.uk/cgi-bin/black_powder.cgi

This also demonstrates that the Davenport formula is useless and false. More powder equals more velocity until grossly overloaded.

There's no such thing as wasting powder, unless you spill some or miss.

That being said, the fun level goes way down in a hurry, it's even less fun if your stock breaks.
I shoot a lot of target matches with just 45 grains of cheap 5fa and a 58 caliber Kolonial rifle. For hunting elk, 100 or 120 grains of 2ff Olde Eynsford will really flatten the trajectory and gives me a velocity of 1850 fps w a 280gr ball.