Pyrodex...will somebody please explain?

[Pete Gaimari]

Good list except for caps.

Not many true Hawkens without caps.

All the more reason to avoid them. :rotf:

Well then you have defined your "point of acceptance". Point is, other people's points may not point where your point is pointed? :v I might point out that a cap and ball revolver is not a muzzleloader - it loads at the cylinder. :wink:

Those matchlock guys look at us technogizzy flint and percussion guys with disdain; and the pole gun guys look at them and think an attached matchcord and trigger mechanism is not "traditional". :idunno:

We can agree to disagree without calling each other names and making personal shots, can't we?

My name isn't Flinter.

Avoid a Hawken? Are you nuts?

Who said a C&B was a ML?

I don't know a matchlock guy, so who cares?

I only agree that calling you names is fun.

You handsome devil. :blah:

 

[CaptainKirk]

I do that all the time with BP and no rag. :blah:

Did you help Al Gore invent the internet, too? :haha:

 

[Herb]

This is one I built. Click on 100% at lower right side of screen to enlarge to read details.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Correct me if i'm wrong Herb. The early Hawkens were full stock flints. The majority of Hawkens were half stock caplocks.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Good list except for caps.

Not many true Hawkens without caps.

All the more reason to avoid them. :rotf:

Well then you have defined your "point of acceptance". Point is, other people's points may not point where your point is pointed? :v I might point out that a cap and ball revolver is not a muzzleloader - it loads at the cylinder. :wink:

Those matchlock guys look at us technogizzy flint and percussion guys with disdain; and the pole gun guys look at them and think an attached matchcord and trigger mechanism is not "traditional". :idunno:

We can agree to disagree without calling each other names and making personal shots, can't we?

My name isn't Flinter.

Avoid a Hawken? Are you nuts?

Who said a C&B was a ML?

I don't know a matchlock guy, so who cares?

I only agree that calling you names is fun.

You handsome devil. :blah:

Lets play fair. I can't modify your posts. Leave mine alone.

Calling you a knucklehead was much funnier.

 

[roundball]

To Capper...

With your hatred of Pyrodex, I wouldn't expect you to believe what I posted.

After reading many of your posts giving your opinion I have often wondered if you have given it a fair test by shooting 4 or 5 pounds of it in your rifles/pistols?

Having shot far more than that amount of it without seeing any negative effects in my guns, I think I've given it a fair chance. Have you?

Zonie, thanks for going the extra mile and getting the straight facts about Pyrodex...I've never bought into the hype perpetuated by the same individuals on the Internet year after year ad naseum because I have long term hands on experience to the contrary.

Hodgdon's answer precisely mirrors my personal experience using 40-50 pounds of Pyrodex P, RS, and Select in several T/C Hawken caplocks all through the 90's. Then when I got into Flintlocks yearsw ago, I finished up my last 6-8 pounds of RS using a 20grn booster charge of Goex 3F in duplex loads.

I've always cleaned all the caplocks and Flintlocks I've owned over the past 20 years with steaming hot soapy water and hot water rinse...all bores are still like factory new today.

 

[Herb]

Capper, fullstock Hawken flintlocks is a can of worms that will make this thread look short. The short answer is there are no, or maybe one, original fullstock flintlock Hawken in captivity. Numerous people on this forum know far more than I do about them, but we don't need to get sidetracked down that trail. Still, they are attractive and the different parts suppliers supply parts for them, even the person described as having the most authentic Hawken parts sets (Don Stith). But there ain't NO type specimen of a flintlock Hawken. Look at enough originals and you will be astonished at how different they are. So pick out one you like, and that is a Hawken for you. I have handled Jim Bridger's Hawken, Mariano Modena's, Tom Tobin's, several other privately owned, and seen photos of dozens of original Hawkens in books and more in museums. Just wanted to taunt you with that fullstock flint Hawken, Capper. Got another one like it, too, and parts to make several more. I like them.

 

[No Grease]

I use both and for me they work equally well. I will continue to use them in my traditions,cva's and any other rifle I purchase.

 

[JMinnerath]

This thread has been wandering on for so long, I kinda just lost interest in it.
Anyway, yesterday I bought a pound of Pyrodex RS just to see if it was as bad as some have said.
Non of these substitute powders existed when I shot PB years ago.
Welll, ummm, this stuff is kinda funky :haha:
I'm getting loads to fire, but just barely.
Guess I'll take off the barrel of my T/C 50 Hawken and give it a real good scrubbing, especially down at the breech plug, maybe some crud in there some how keeping that stuff from getting into the channel and closer to the cap.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Just prime it with some real powder. :grin:

 

[JMinnerath]

:grin: I know that'll work.
I did a lot of cleaning and scraping down at the breech, now with the nipple out, I can see some of that powder come out through the channel to the nipple.
After I get done packing firewood in I'll shoot a little again just plain.
I'll use it up on paper, sure ain't gonna toss it
If I end up getting that Walker, I could use it up with that too.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Does your barrel have a patent breech with a standard drum, and what is the diameter of the flash hole on your nipple?
I am using the standard Lyman nipple with either RMS/Dynamit Nobel or Remington caps and have experienced no problems.
If people like yourself are experiencing legitimate problems, I would like to try to trace down the root of the problem.
My son has fired both Pyrodex RS and Goex Pinnacle in his CVA St. Louis Hawken, and I've fired nothing but RS/P in my Trade Rifle. Neither of us have experienced slow ignition, with the exception of the one time I shot the dregs from a can of RS that was 10 years old (Slow to ignite)

 

[CaptainKirk]

I don't think I'd recommend RS in the Walker. Most of the loads I've seen are with P, and that's all I've ever shot in my C&B's

 

[JMinnerath]

Well, ya need more "fire in the hole" to light off that Pyrodex.
There must have been a little build up of fouling in the channel from the nipple to the powder.
After I went back out, every shot was like it should be.
I use a Hot Shot nipple from Butler Creek ( I sized it once, seems like it was .040, but I don't remember for sure) and had run low on Remington #10s so was using RWS caps.
I think that's all less important than having the breech area clean.
And I gave some extra raps to the barrel to try and get some powder to move into the channel.
That Pyro isn't as smooth and easy flowing as regular BP so it takes a little help.
I shot a pound of Shockey's Gold through it some time ago, never had a miss or hang fire with it, strange since that stuff is really coarse and chunky, might have a little lower ignition temp.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Well, ya need more "fire in the hole" to light off that Pyrodex.

Right. And P lights off a little easier than RS as well, which is another reason I'd go with it in the Walker.
P is the equivalent of 3F and is recommended for most firearms up to .50 cal, and most BP revolvers (and, with the exception of the real ones) will generally hold less powder than it would take to blow the cylinder. My '58 Remmy has a max recommended of 35 grains, and you really have to pack it to get the ball to clear the forcing cone with that load.
Not only will the P burn faster and ignite easier, it will give slightly higher velocities compared to equal volumes of RS.

 

[Herb]

Pyrodex RS has bigger kernels than P, and seems light and fluffy. That is why some have trouble with it in patent breeches. It bridges in that small 3/8" diameter ignition chamber and does not get down to the nipple fire. Same as Swiss 1 1/2 in a hooked flint breech plug. Hodgdon's Pyrodex website has this to say about P: "P is also useful as a priming charge in guns which have a tortuous or fouled ignition channel or other ignition problems. P compares to 3F blackpowder on a particle size basis." In searching the web for info on shooting Pyrodex, I found one reference where it said that Sam Fadala's "The Complete Blackpowder Handbook, 5th edition" said that Pyrodex P had been reformulated and would now work in flintlocks. I have not seen that book. So I phoned Hodgdon and asked them. They said it had not been reformulated. The person I talked with didn't seem to know anything about the use of Pyrodex in flintlocks beyond the "use 5 grains of blackpowder to ignite it".

But that gave me the idea to try Pyrodex P in the pan and see if it would ignite P in the bore, with no blackpowder booster (year 2002 powder). So I poured a half-pan full and dropped the flint on it. About a 6" ball of fire and a very slow WHOOSH as it burned with a two foot column of smoke, just like a rocket at Canaveral. So I tried Goex 3F and got about the same thing. So I loaded up 80 grains of straight Pyrodex P and a patched round ball, having my ball puller along in case it didn't go off. Used a half-pan of P as prime, touched it off, big cloud of pan-smoke and I thought, "hecky durn, it didn't go off." Then it did, I almost missed the mountain. So I loaded up and tried it again, but forgot to pick the vent for any of the 5 shots today. Same thing. It ignited so slow that after the pan ignition, I could bring the rifle back on target before it went off. Same thing a third time. So I loaded straight P again and used Goex 3F as pan prime. Same thing for two shots. Now, this is an improper application of Pyrodex P, it is not designed to work in a flintlock, but requires a much higher ignition flame from a cap or a 5 grain blackpowder boost. But it could be useful in training yourself not to flinch at a flintlock hammer fall, but to hold on target!

I have been unable to find anything on Hodgdon's web sites about using Pyrodex. I don't think they know how well it will work, if they do, you sure can't find it out from them. At least I don't know where to find it. I believe anyone who has read this whole thread knows more about the subject than most people at Hodgdon, thanks to all the experience people report on. It is no wonder there is confusion if the people who make and sell Pyrodex can't or won't tell you how to use it.

 

[Bill Hall]

Now, I like like that idea :thumbsup: . Bill

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Finally, a use for Pyrodex.

 

[CaptainKirk]

About a 6" ball of fire and a very slow WHOOSH as it burned with a two foot column of smoke, just like a rocket at Canaveral.

Careful, Herb...you're dating yourself here.
(It was re-named Cape Kennedy from 1963 to 1973 in memoriam to JFK.
Then I guess they re-re-named it Canaveral again? I dunno...) :idunno: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Canaveral

Anyway, I knew what you meant.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Finally, a use for Pyrodex.

I thought you already had a use...fertilizer! :rotf: