Pyrodex...will somebody please explain?

[ebiggs1]

My first muzleloader was a Thompson Center Hawken caplock bought in the early 70's. It has shot everything, Pyrodex and real black powder. It shows no signs of rusting away. So I imagine if you do shoot Pyrodex in your gun it will still last you a lifetime!

Maybe even your son's lifetime, too.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Herb's rifles are works of art but how about a little focus on the point of his post in this thread which was how well that beautiful rifle shot with the Pyrodex load?
I am a dedicated BP user at this point in my shooting career but that group is about as good as it gets.
As to clean up....Pyrodex, BP, 777 - I haven't noticed any big difference cleaning up after one or the other. The same techniques apply.
Pete

I complimented his workmanship. I'll never compliment Crapodex. Even if his gun does shoot it well. There's too many guns that don't.

How do you know that real BP won't shoot even better in his gun? Everybody shooting a ML isn't as experienced as Herb. Real BP is more forgiving to shoot. It will fire when things aren't perfect in the gun.

Lets do a hypothetical situation. You have to go to war with a muzzleloader. You'll be supplied with real BP, or Crapodex. Which one will you use?

 

[Herb]

Capper, here's a hypothetical closer to reality. You're 67 years old. Your brain becomes addled from breathing lead fumes from your casting and the relatives put you in the Alzheimer's Unit at the Care Center (I play guitar at such a place each month). The family splits up your firearms and somebody gets your muzzleloaders, but maybe he lives in Denver or Houston and has no access to experienced shooters and does not know about this Web site - if it even exists then- How can he learn to shoot your rifles, assuming he wants to, and what components are available to him? I did not post photos of my rifles to show off, but to make that point- I hope whoever gets my rifles will shoot them, and I want them to have all the options we have now. I'm happy people are shooting New Englanders or Bobcats, even with the replica powders. I never run them down. They probably are the main group on this forum (at least the mass produced modern muzzleloader rifles). I think we should encourage them, even if that means saying honest things about the replica powders. You, of course, don't have to, because you'd probably have a seizure trying to! You can say, "I shoot only real black powder, I don't like the substitutes." But you can't honestly say they won't work.

 

[R.M.]

Herb, I'm not in this fight what-so-ever, just wondering if you've seen the type of problem that Mike Brines has had with rust/discoloration after using Pyrodex? It seems that the type of steel used in his custom barrel is not compatible with Pyrodex.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Herb...........I don't think I ever said Pyro doesn't work. That would be foolish.

What I say is, in the type of guns we all shoot. BP works better. It fires more reliably. There are exceptions who can get good results from subs, and you're one of them.

I worry about those inexperienced who will follow your lead and not get the same results.

If a noob has the means to get real BP. I'm comfortable in saying they'll get good results.

 

[DutchmanDick]

I started out using real black powder back when I was 9 years old - it was the only thing available back then (one of my uncles gave me a CVA "English Belt Pistol", .45 flintlock, that he had built from a kit, for Christmas that year). By the time I was 13, real black was getting hard to find and I had to go to Pyrodex "P" in my CVA Squirrel Rifle I had built from a kit. By then, I knew how to clean a ML properly, and I STILL got rust in that CVA rifle. I had never had a problem with black in that flintlock pistol (which I shot so much the hardening wore off the frizzen - I'll have to re-harden or replace it one day...). In fact, every gun I shot with P-Dex rusted. That turned me off muzzleloading for a long time, until the "non corrosive" subs came out. They worked OK in caplocks, but not worth a tinker's darn in flinters. I FINALLY, one day, had enough scratch to order 25 pounds of KIK from Powder Inc. a couple years ago (mixed lot of FFFg and FFg, and one pound of FFFFg Goex priming powder). Now, I almost NEVER use subs anymore - and no rust problems.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I read so many posts like yours Rich.

It's hard for me to ever recommend Pyro to anybody.

 

[Josh Smith]

I'm now just telling the folks with inlines and fancy priming systems to use Pyrodex.

You know, these things:

http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com

:blah:

Seriously, I've not had the rust problems with Pyrodex some of you folks have had, but definitely do not like the "snap boom" lag time.

On the up side, it does seem to burn a bit cleaner than Goex (the only BP I've tried - Pete, didn't you say Swiss burns cleaner?).

Still searching for that perfect powder and patch.

I think I was born in the wrong century... I so would have gone off with Boone. :thumbsup:

Josh

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Swiss does burn cleaner, but it's pricey.

Goex is fine for hunting.

 

[Herb]

I have shot Pyrodex RS mostly, and the Triple 7 2F and 3F, in a couple dozen rifles, mabe half flintlock. Yes, I have seen rust, the first time I cleaned with water and it cured me of cleaning with water. I have never seen it in any of the other rifles I shot. In this last session, I shot about 120 rounds and did clean with water. It seemed to work better than my Murphy Oil Soap/alcohol/hydrogen peroxide mix. But I dried the bore well and oiled it and did not have after-rust problems. I don't say this can't happen, just that it hasn't happened in my rifles.

 

[Herb]

Capper, I am an exception only because I have tested Pyrodex and Triple 7 powders enough to learn how to use them. Anyone following my methods posted on here will get the same results. I am probably also an exception in that I am willing to talk about this. I am always pleased when someone else has the cojones to speak up and say, "yes, I use these powders and they work." I thank all of them for that.

 

[Herb]

Swiss may burn cleaner in moderate charges, but when you get to 100 to 140 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 or 2 in a .58 caliber for an elk load, you will find fouling such that you can't fire more than 3 or 4 shots without cleaning the bore. And as for failure to fire that Josh Smith talks about, you ain't had such problems until you try to make a hooked flint breech work, especially with Swiss powder. Of course if you drill that 3/8" hole out to 1/2" it will work fine. Just another example of people repeating what other people say, and there may be truth to it, but it ain't the whole story.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

All I said was it burns cleaner than Goex. Which is true.

140gr? Not in my lifetime.

Don't get frisky on me Herb. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Josh Smith]

Herb,

Can you please tell me how you manage to get a "boom" from a rifle using 2Fg Pyrodex, instead of a "snap boom"?

By this I mean, I do not want to hear the cap go off before the charge ignites.

Others have said to back it with 5gns black powder - I do this, and it works, but kinda' defeats the purpose if I have real black on hand.

My method is to drill the nipple out to .040" and use magnum caps, which is pretty much just the equivalent of a musket cap setup in a size #11.

Any erosion on this setup, though, and the hammer starts lifting. It seems .040" is the absolute max for firing without appreciable hammer lift.

Thanks,

Josh

 

[Jason Lewis]

has anybody else heard of this white muzzleloading guy? i don't think i've ever heard the guys name mentioned before. he seems to be an unmentionable gun lover judging from his website.

 

[kelleyjk]

Herb's rifles are works of art but how about a little focus on the point of his post in this thread which was how well that beautiful rifle shot with the Pyrodex load?
I am a dedicated BP user at this point in my shooting career but that group is about as good as it gets.
As to clean up....Pyrodex, BP, 777 - I haven't noticed any big difference cleaning up after one or the other. The same techniques apply.
Pete

theres already plenty of focus maybe you should read up the thread

I complemented his rifles here in this thread because the pictures of his rifles, are here, in this thread

I sure hope that'll be Ok with you if I do that wont it pardner?

 

[ebiggs1]

“I did not post photos of my rifles to show off, but to make that point-...”

Boy, Mr. Herb, if I could make a rifle like that, I would post pictures and BRAG about it. No doubt about that!. And very proudly, I might add, so man go for it. They are wonderful.

BTW, I use Pyrodex and use is successfully. It does not rust any more than black powder. But I usually take more precaution when cleaning than some do. I also started to rethink the soapy water clean up. I use a bore light every time I clean and I have stated to use a black powder solvent. That is even for real black powder, too.
I have a 30 some year old Thompson Center Hawken cap lock that has shot mostly Pyrodex and it hasn't rusted away, yet anyways.

 

[Herb]

Medic 302- this is Dr. Gary White of Roosevelt, Utah, who developed the old Green River Rifle Works. (I built a Leman in his shop in 1978). That business failed and he went on to White Muzzleloading Systems. I know him. Went to his shop once and asked him how many rifles he had built. He said, "Oh, a couple thousand". His rifles are frequently for sale on Track of the Wolf. He knows mucho about ML firearms.

Josh- you have trouble with your loading methods or you would not get the Snap-Boom. You have to clean that priming chamber from the nipple to the bore. It is not the powder- it is your rifle. You cannot load it up and leave it set for a week (was it fired and not cleaned all this while?) It absolutely is not the powder but how you use it.

Capper- The loads I mention I have tested for elk hunters. I worked up loads in a Bill Large .58 caliber Hawken for a hunter in Utah. He applied for 14 years before he got a permit for this trophy unit. I worked up loads for him, but in his own testing he went with 130 grains of Goex 3F and a roundball. Killed his elk, too. This is not an excessive load, and a moderate load that many people recommend might have let his bull escape.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Oh, I know it wasn't excessive. It's just excessive for this old man.

 

[Zonie]

For what it's worth, I think powder loads over 110 grains are excessive for 95 percent of the modern reproduction rifles.

This is not to say 130-140 grains of powder is excessive for a well made Hawken style rifle built with the highest quality heavy duty barrel and breech plug like the originals.

The guns I'm referring to that can use these heavy powder loads are in the $2500+ range and they are custom builds. They are far from anything offered by Thompson Center, Lyman, Pedersoli or Uberti.

For these Italian and U.S. made recreations the shooter must always read and follow what is written in the handbook that comes with their rifles.