Pyrodex...will somebody please explain?

[Pete Gaimari]

I agree Zonie, and if you can't get a kill with 110 gr. You're too far away. :wink:

 

[Josh Smith]

For what it's worth, I think powder loads over 110 grains are excessive for 95 percent of the modern reproduction rifles.

This is not to say 130-140 grains of powder is excessive for a well made Hawken style rifle built with the highest quality heavy duty barrel and breech plug like the originals.

The guns I'm referring to that can use these heavy powder loads are in the $2500+ range and they are custom builds. They are far from anything offered by Thompson Center, Lyman, Pedersoli or Uberti.

For these Italian and U.S. made recreations the shooter must always read and follow what is written in the handbook that comes with their rifles.

Hi Zonie,

A bit off topic: I didn't see anyplace in the T/C sidelock manual where it gave a maximum charge.

That's not to say I'm just dumping powder into the barrel. My personal maximum is 100gns for safety's sake, and my accurate load is 70gns in .50 caliber.

I've not gone above 60gns in the .45 caliber because it just looks like it's hitting the point of diminishing returns after that.

If I wanted raw power and range I'd go back to centerfire.

Long way around to asking this: What is considered a max charge in a .50 T/C? Or a .45 CVA, for that matter?

Thank you,

Josh

P.S. Nope, not going to try it. Just like to know. J.S.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I'm not positive Josh, but i'd guess around 110 gr.

 

[Josh Smith]

Thanks, Cap'. Sounds like a good number to me!

Josh

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

No offense to anyone, but I thought this thread would have died of boredom a long time ago. But then, I'm still reading it so..... :shocked2:

 

[hoochiepapa]

Herb, I love the pics! You should show off your rifles. And you got any more elk pics? Love to see them, too!

 

[CaptainKirk]

No offense to anyone, but I thought this thread would have died of boredom a long time ago. But then, I'm still reading it so..... :shocked2:

Having started it, I couldn't agree more. But some things develop a life of their own! :shocked2:

 

[Claude Mathis]

I just had a sudden impulse to go dump the Pyrodex I have in the garden, but I can't bring myself to pour $20 away.

What's it worth if you're never going to use it?

If you can't bear to get rid of it, then save it. Place it on the shelf and forget about it. Move on.

 

[Rogue River]

Hello Josh:
Give it as a Christmas present to your favorite muzzleloader buddy! :thumbsup:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

8 pages just to say Crapodex is.....well......crappy. :idunno:

 

[R.M.]

8 pages just to say Crapodex is.....well......crappy. :idunno:

Yup, and half of those posts are yours. :rotf:

 

[Josh Smith]

Hello Josh:
Give it as a Christmas present to your favorite muzzleloader buddy! :thumbsup:

My favorite muzzleloader buddy is only 11, and, well, I don't want to discourage him. :haha:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

8 pages just to say Crapodex is.....well......crappy. :idunno:

Yup, and half of those posts are yours. :rotf:

Hard to convince the stubborn. :idunno:

 

[R.M.]

Hard to convince the stubborn. :idunno:

So I've been told many times.

 

[Jason Lewis]

thanks herb, i feel considerably more informed now.

 

[Herb]

When I first got Swiss powder a few years ago, I called the distributor for loading data. He said there was none, Swiss would not furnish any. There is loading data now (Google "Swiss powder loading data"), mostly from the U.K. for target loads. In a .58 flintlock target rifle with a round ball, they list 75-90 grains of #2 for a 100 meter target load. For what that is worth.

Lyman's Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual, 2nd edition, says "The data listed in this section has been tested by Lyman technicians under controlled laboratory conditions. It is designed for use in modern production muzzleloaders. With the vast range of modern muzzleloaders available to today's shooters, there are also wide variations in the maximum loads recommended for these firearms. Loads shown in this manual may not be safe for all muzzleloaders. It is the shooters responsibility to obtain the maximum loads recommended by the manufacturer of a particular firearm, and not to exceed these loads...."

Those loads go to a maximum of 120 grains for almost all calibers except .58, which go to 140 grains. .32 and .36 calibers max out at 70 grains and some .45 loads max out at 100, others go to 120 grains.

 

[ebiggs1]

Hi Zonie,

A bit off topic: I didn't see anyplace in the T/C sidelock manual where it gave a maximum charge.
That's not to say I'm just dumping powder into the barrel...............
........Long way around to asking this: What is considered a max charge in a .50 T/C?

Thank you,

Josh

P.S. Nope, not going to try it. Just like to know. J.S


Mr. Josh,
You didn't notice the little red warning in the Thompson Center manual?

 

[Herb]

So here is the Lyman data graphed, with Triple 7 data and some of my own, shown in pictures in this thread. You can enlarge this by clicking on the bottom right corner of your screen, at least I can.

Don't worry about the doglegs, that happens. The red lines are my test of Pyrodex P. The data at the top right is from my rifles, 3 of these targets were in my photos. Notice there is almost no difference in velocity of Triple 7 2F and 3F, just as Hodgdon shows. My 38" barreled rifle got more velocity than the 42" barrel, but that is real test data. The 3F load had a leather OPW but the 2F load was tested with a green Hornaday OPW, the only time I ever used these. Note that my Goex 2F and 3F velocities agree closely with Lyman's.

Now let us look at cost of powder. When all else fails, the critics say, "Triple 7 costs more!" As if it was any of their business whether the shooter is using a $64.99 rifle or a $2500 rifle or a $25 bottle of Triple 7. Capper had five pounds of black powder delivered to him for $22.20 per pound. Let's say he shoots 80 grain loads. At 7000 grains per pound divided by 80, he gets 87.5 loads per pound. 87.5 divided into $22.20 per pound equals .2537 cents per shot, or $2.53 for 10 shots or $25.37 for 100 shots.

Pyrodex RS goes for $19.95 here, add 7 percent sales tax, it is $21.35 per pound. But if you load it by volume to equal black powder, your 80 grain charge only weighs 74 grains in my tests. Call it 75 (Pyrodex Select weighed 75.1 grains). So 75 divided into 7000 means 93.3 loads per can. Divide 93.3 into $21.35 and you get .2288 cost per shot, or $2.28 for 10 or $22.88 for 100 shots. That's cheaper than Capper's black powder.

OK, you say, but Triple 7 costs a lot more. Well, it is $24.99 at Basin here in Vernal (don't see it in Wal Mart here), with sales tax it is $26.74 per pound. But if you want to load it equivalent to Capper's 80 grain black powder charge, Hodgdon says to reduce the Triple 7 charge by 15 percent. 100 percent minus 15 percent equals 85 percent times 80 grains equals 68 grains of Triple 7 to load. See the dashed line on my graph above, trace it down to 1700 fps to equal the 80 grain Goex 2F velocity. That agrees closely.

So I carefully measured 14 loads of 68 grains of Triple 7 2F with my powder measure (calibrated to read 100 with 100 gains weight of Goex 2F). Those loads averaged 52.19 grains weight. Divide 52.19 into 7000 grains of Triple 7 in that bottle and you get 134.12 loads equal in velocity to Capper's 80 grains of Goex 2F. Divide 134.12 loads into $26.74 cost per pound and you get .1994 cents per shot, or $1.99 for 10 or $19.94 per 100 shots of Triple 7.

Are you Pyrodex and Triple 7 haters running out of factual arguments yet?

 

[kelleyjk]

When I first got Swiss powder a few years ago, I called the distributor for loading data. He said there was none, Swiss would not furnish any. There is loading data now (Google "Swiss powder loading data"), mostly from the U.K. for target loads. In a .58 flintlock target rifle with a round ball, they list 75-90 grains of #2 for a 100 meter target load. For what that is worth.

Lyman's Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual, 2nd edition, says "The data listed in this section has been tested by Lyman technicians under controlled laboratory conditions. It is designed for use in modern production muzzleloaders. With the vast range of modern muzzleloaders available to today's shooters, there are also wide variations in the maximum loads recommended for these firearms. Loads shown in this manual may not be safe for all muzzleloaders. It is the shooters responsibility to obtain the maximum loads recommended by the manufacturer of a particular firearm, and not to exceed these loads...."

Those loads go to a maximum of 120 grains for almost all calibers except .58, which go to 140 grains. .32 and .36 calibers max out at 70 grains and some .45 loads max out at 100, others go to 120 grains.

hey Herb try to stay focused on the topic or the forum police not give you no break mon oh yeah...

 

[R.M.]

Herb, I've been saying that for years, just not near as well as you have. Good job.