Rocks are more reliable than caps

[FishDFly]

Maybe some don’t have enough sense to come in out of the rain? Just sayin’

Makes sense to me.

 

[maillemaker]

Late the the thread and don't feel like cruising through 6 pages of replies.

But I've been shooting N-SSA competition for 10 years now with percussion era arms, including rifled muskets, smoothbore muskets, carbines, and revolvers. In all that time, with perhaps 10,000 rounds put downrange with almost all my percussion arms, I think I've had a failure to fire less than 5 times. Certainly less than 10. I've probably had 3 caps that did not fire due to there being no compound in the cup.

The exception here is the percussion Sharps. The percussion Sharps has a relatively long fire channel that makes two 90-degree bends before entering the chamber. The cap blast must do this and then burn through the tissue paper on the end of the cartridge. Sometimes it fails to go off. The Italian reproductions do not take care to precisely fit the fire cone and cleanout screw and the nipple hole, which means the fire channel also has "nooks and crannies" along the way to absorb some of the cap blast. Larry Flees does fantastic work reworking the Sharps fire channel to greatly improve reliability.

Percussion arms are absolutely more reliable than flintlocks. If for no other reason than the spark-generating mechanism is replaced every shot. Flints wear out and eventually need knapping or they won't spark. As I recall hearing living historians talk about Brown Besses, they misfired 1 in 5 shots. (Maybe it was 1 in 10 - going from memory). If flintlock arms were as reliable and provided a rate of fire equal to percussion, they never would have been replaced by them.

Now of course there are caveats to this. With a percussion arm, if you don't snap caps prior to loading to make sure the fire channel is clear of any cleaning solution and/or oils from the last cleaning session, you're setting yourself up for a misfire. And I'm sure there are expert flintlock shooters out there who get nearly 100% reliability with their guns. But all things being equal, the percussion system is superior. This is just another example of technology marching on. I still enjoy shooting flintlocks.

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

Maryanne or Ginger…

 

[david w]

And how is that?

Why do flintlocks need cows knees and percussion does not? How come folks are always worried about dampness and the powder in the pan if they are more reliable? Huh.

What is sold more of flint or percussion?

A percussion is more solid. I've shot them too many times for me to argue the point. I like them both, but I prefer a flintlock because it's more of a challenge.

 

[maillemaker]

A percussion is more solid. I've shot them too many times for me to argue the point. I like them both, but I prefer a flintlock because it's more of a challenge.

I also enjoy the flintlock for the challenge. I also appreciate the technology and enjoy shooting firearms of different eras to experience what it was like to utilize the technology of the eras. Also I like the flinters because if push really came to shove, I make my own black powder, could knap my own flint if I had to, and could shoot pebbles out of my smoothbore if I had to.

 

[BP Addict]

The problem with percussions is that 90 degree turn in the drum to get to the powder...Too many times that's where the grease and oil buildup...I've seen it many times...Now, with a flintlock, you have powder in the pan, powder in the barrel that is literally a few thousandths of an inch away...As long as the bore is dry, the powder dry and the flint is sharp and in a good lock you will have ignition...Oh, and typically flint lock shooters shoot real black powder (with a lower ignition temperature) and are probably more experienced than percussion shooters...They got into muzzleloading to learn how our forefathers used their muzzleloaders, not just to fill a deer tag, so they tend to study and lean more about their weapons...If percussion shooters would have been proficient, the inlines that we see now would have never been invented.....

I don’t know that I’d say that Flintlock shooters are probably “more experienced” than Caplock shooters, more practiced, might be a better phrase.

Everybody started with what they could afford and/or what they liked. Some started with Flint and never looked back. Others like me went with the cap gun ($149 used in a Pawnshop in 1986 and I had to use lay-a-way!). I’ve been shooting them since then and just switched in the past couple of years. Can most people with a little tutelage pick up a Percussion gun and do well in a short period of time, yes. Did it take me longer to learn flintlock shooting, yes again! For the first time in forever, I had to go to the range numerous times until I no longer saw the flash or flinched when the gun went off. Follow-through is more important now than it ever was!

As far as Inlines go, yes, they were developed for more positive ignition while hunting. Some manufacturers even made them look like modern guns to entice those shooters to try Muzzle Loading for Big Game, especially in those states where it’s an EXTRA season. The other reason was faster twist barrels and the use of heavy conical-shaped projectiles for longer shots. It was thought that a more reliable ignition system coupled with the heavy bullets meant a greater chance for the animal to go down in its tracks while extending the range a bit.

Thanks!

Walt

 

[Snooterpup]

Late the the thread and don't feel like cruising through 6 pages of replies.

But I've been shooting N-SSA competition for 10 years now with percussion era arms, including rifled muskets, smoothbore muskets, carbines, and revolvers. In all that time, with perhaps 10,000 rounds put downrange with almost all my percussion arms, I think I've had a failure to fire less than 5 times. Certainly less than 10. I've probably had 3 caps that did not fire due to there being no compound in the cup.

The exception here is the percussion Sharps. The percussion Sharps has a relatively long fire channel that makes two 90-degree bends before entering the chamber. The cap blast must do this and then burn through the tissue paper on the end of the cartridge. Sometimes it fails to go off. The Italian reproductions do not take care to precisely fit the fire cone and cleanout screw and the nipple hole, which means the fire channel also has "nooks and crannies" along the way to absorb some of the cap blast. Larry Flees does fantastic work reworking the Sharps fire channel to greatly improve reliability.

Percussion arms are absolutely more reliable than flintlocks. If for no other reason than the spark-generating mechanism is replaced every shot. Flints wear out and eventually need knapping or they won't spark. As I recall hearing living historians talk about Brown Besses, they misfired 1 in 5 shots. (Maybe it was 1 in 10 - going from memory). If flintlock arms were as reliable and provided a rate of fire equal to percussion, they never would have been replaced by them.

Now of course there are caveats to this. With a percussion arm, if you don't snap caps prior to loading to make sure the fire channel is clear of any cleaning solution and/or oils from the last cleaning session, you're setting yourself up for a misfire. And I'm sure there are expert flintlock shooters out there who get nearly 100% reliability with their guns. But all things being equal, the percussion system is superior. This is just another example of technology marching on. I still enjoy shooting flintlocks.

Agreed completely!

 

[doubleset]

And then there is this ... which I offer without comment except that it seems to have been introduced and pursued purely in the interests of science and objective evaluation; and might also serve as at least a partial answer to the OP's original question:

Lock speed; percussion vs flint

 

[Ben Meyer]

I have both a Flintlock SMR and a inexpensive Hawken percussion. I've never had a problem with either of them going bang. So based on my experience, it's a tie. That said, I've had a frizzen spring snap at the range on my flintlock. Flintlocks do have more moving parts. I get about 25-30 shots per Flint, and the flints I buy are $2.65 each. 100 #11 caps is around $10, so price per shot is about the same. The Hawken is a little easier to clean.

 

[user 49399]

I prefer flintlocks but not because I think they’re more reliable but because I just think they’re cool.

 

[Woody Morgan]

Which work better, caps of rocks, when you have no powder, shot or ball?

Match heads.

wm

 

[waksupi]

And how is that?

Why do flintlocks need cows knees and percussion does not? How come folks are always worried about dampness and the powder in the pan if they are more reliable? Huh.

What is sold more of flint or percussion?

I never use a cows knee and no one in our group does, that I have noticed. Cradling the rifle protecting the lock works fine. More cap guns are sold, because it is cheaper generally to buy a decent quality gun. A good flint lock itself, costs as much or more than a second had cap rifle. The reason cap locks go off the line, is wet caps, or water in the nipple. They could probably benefit from a cows knee.

 

[deerstalkert]

caplock vs flintlock
blondes vs redheads
beans in chili or not
ice in whiskey or neat
I like em all! I win!

 

[Rudyard]

Flint purist I am But the argument that it was better than a properly made percussion gun is less reliable is not the case & it dosn't hold water to maintain caps are less reliable . generally . Rudyard

 

[SDSmlf]

I see it time and again. At our monthly shoot yesterday, pretty much every cap lock shooter were having problems getting their rifles to fire, while the flintlock shooters went merrily on our way shooting targets. I've seen the same thing at shoots for years.
Why do people stick with cap locks, when flintlocks are so much more reliable?

Didn’t catch where you are located, and you have nothing in your profile letting us know where you reside. Are you close to North Carolina? Let’s arrange a hypothetical completion. And for what it is worth, I have more percussion and flintlocks that I can immediately count, but love and shoot them all. Let’s make it a winner takes both guns and pays transportation costs to shooting location. Better bring your best and most dependable flintlock, I’ll bring a nondescript percussion gun. We will both start with our guns loaded and at half cock, we are on a hunt. First challenge will be a canoe flip. Guns will be in a canoe that flips, primed and capped, as we are on a hunt, no funny business or modifications to the guns allowed. We will retrieve our guns from the river bottom, bring them to full cock, and shoot at a target. Gun is shot as it comes out of the river water. You can come up with the second challenge. And first fail to fire or target miss loses the competition, unless other gun also fails to fire or misses the target. You and your flintlock up to it?

And for what it is worth, not trolling you, just responding to to your OP with a challenge. Looking forward to your response.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Percussion guns are so bad, flintlocks are way better.

That’s why the people that depended on these guns for daily survival and warfare adopted percussion guns so quickly across the entire globe.

Yeah, makes so much sense to me.

 

[rocullen]

Maryanne or Ginger…

yes.

 

[Howard Pippin]

I never use a cows knee and no one in our group does, that I have noticed. Cradling the rifle protecting the lock works fine. More cap guns are sold, because it is cheaper generally to buy a decent quality gun. A good flint lock itself, costs as much or more than a second had cap rifle. The reason cap locks go off the line, is wet caps, or water in the nipple. They could probably benefit from a cows knee.

This site probably contains more purist shooters than most that I look at or feel I'm a part of. With that said, I enjoy those that take life as it comes and those that don't leave room for discussion. Price has a lot to do with muzzleloaders, amen. I only own one flintlock, it's lots of fun, but just another one of my hobbies. Did wind up with three percussions. As the saying goes, you get what you pay for. My percussions are not high dollar items and yet they all work reasonably well. My flintlock was also lower-priced, and if I wasn't some one that tinkered, I probably would've sold it because there was lots of minor problems. Nothing I couldn't solve and it's reliable to a point, but you better keep aware that your flints are getting dull, your touchhole is plugging, or your frizzen needs to be tended to I marvel at those that get 50 shots out of a flint, 20 is good for me. Yet to go out and shoot for an hour I probably only get 10 shots so the life of flints don't really affect things very much. I have picked up pieces of churt on the ground and they worked just as well as the cheap flints I buy. I have period clothing, but I don't hardly ever wear it. The club I shoot at is not that kind of club, but we all have fun and comradely together. Isn't that the name of the game? Thanks for reading.
Squint

 

[Rató:rats]

I think it’s worth noting that when Davy Crockett went to Texas he left his percussion guns at home in Tennessee and took his older Flintlock with him. Maybe because of the availability of caps on the frontier.

 

[59sharps]

Lucky for me I live near the Flint River.

But I own a caplock .50 TC Hawken...

For now...

Is that where flints flow like water out of the garden of Eden?