To much is made of short arbors

[M. De Land]

Sorry, but no. What about the breech thrust, the cylinder pressure rearward against the standing breech? That equal but opposite thing from physics.

I'm speaking of the powder burning pressure vector to separate barrel and arbor, not recoil (rearward cylinder movement) which is inertia driven.

 

[45D]

I know the open frame guns flex but I have never seen any evidence that the barrel moves rearward off the wedge !
Harmonics is linear barrel oscillation not fore and aft movement !

My goodness!! A beat up wedge is all the evidence you need of barrel movement. I've had a wedge shoot out like a watermelon seed from a Walker . . . It didn't jump out by itself!
That won't happen with an arbor of correct length . . .

Mike

 

[SDSmlf]

I'm speaking of the powder burning pressure vector to separate barrel and arbor, not recoil which is inertia driven.

I do not have pressure curves, but remember reading (I am not going to check for exact numbers for this dribble) LPU units in the 8k to 10k range for revolvers approximately in the good old Lyman Blackpowder Handbook. So let’s say that translates to 5k psi, as that sounds reasonable. 5k psi on a .45” diameter projectile is 2250 lbs of force pushing that projectile out of the barrel. Is that the lost ‘powder burning pressure vector’ you are looking for? I remember reading studies on the topic, but it just doesn’t seem worth the effort to do the research for this topic.

 

[Ballshooter]

Was it accurate before the arbor fit job?

Yes, it was acceptable but not like this. Only 17 yards but after each shot I removed the barrel and put it back and continued for the next 5...So I think it helped I would always get a flyer in any group I shot. But not anymore. I shot seven cylinders and removed the barrel and put back on each time, my groups all looked like this.

 

[M. De Land]

My goodness!! A beat up wedge is all the evidence you need of barrel movement. I've had a wedge shoot out like a watermelon seed from a Walker . . . It didn't jump out by itself!
That won't happen with an arbor of correct length . . .

Mike

Did the Walker have a wedge adjustment screw in the end of the arbor when spitting it out ?
Wonder why my tool steel wedges don't show any signs of battering or barrel mortise enlargement .
Soft wedges will batter as well as pucker barrel slots.

 

[Pete453]

Ballshooter,
That's fantastic shooting!!! Nice work!

 

[MedicMike3762]

The adjutive is " most" not "all" which incorporates factory Uberti's and 30 years worth of Pietta's. My 80 version 60 Pietta once worked over with a new trigger , front sight and crown job was as accurate as the 58 or ROA before it's over haul and that had more to do with the inferior sights it came with than accuracy potential.
If you get the wedge in the same depth with each reassembly using a gauge, you won't give up any accuracy to end fit or lack there of in my opinion.

I don’t normally go in for opinion posts but when in Rome. My question to you is this, do you really want to carry around some silly feeler gauge or some other type of gauge? Sure, maybe it works but what happens when you go to your property or the range or wherever, and guess what I forgot my 21st century feeler gauge!!!! What a buzz kill! I don’t know about you but I really do not enjoy shooting out of a tackle box full of instruments and gauges required to keep an already temperamental firearm going. There’s a reason that this is a 20th and 21st century problem and that is because the original guns were built as originally intended the arbor bottoms out period!

Here’s another example, say you and your buddies, Curly, Moe, and Larry go shooting. You open your super deluxe dedicated pistol box with the stands and drawers and all the fixins, you grab your 60 army all feeler spaced up after you cleaned it last time you shot. Your feeling frisky today, you load the gun with the cylinder on the gun! WOW! Then everyone commences to shooting up the saloon or (insert your LARP here). You and your band of misfits then have to reload after several near misses with the law. Uh oh what’s this? Your smoke wagon is all skinned out! Fowled beyond belief, the only option is to pause the gun play and take her down and wipe her off. After she is all cleaned and ready to go you open the drawer on your ultra deluxe pistol box and realize…….you left your feeler gauge laying on the kitchen table! You think to your self, no doubt the squaw has cleaned your fancy gauge into oblivion and it will never be seen again! Determined to get back into the fight with your desperados you smash the wedge in and get back to work. First marshal you draw down on, you go to thumb the hammer back and bang! YOUR DEAD!!!!! In all your excitement you over drove the wedge and bound the gun!! What a STROKE!! You died because you forgot your favorite set of feeler gauges! Don’t die because of feeler gauges, fix the short arbor! There is a reason the originals are still around and it’s not because they had better steel in the 1800s. It’s because they were built according to the design that allows the most strength and repeatability with out the use of a gauge to assemble the gun!

 

[Pete453]

My vote is to close this thread before some start posting photos of their arbors behind the woodshed

It always ends with an arbor measuring contest

 

[45D]

Did the Walker have a wedge adjustment screw in the end of the arbor when spitting it out ?
Wonder why my tool steel wedges don't show any signs of battering or barrel mortise enlargement .
Soft wedges will batter as well as pucker barrel slots.

Oh heck no! That was back in the mid '80's. I was just making noise and smoke and slinging lead. Walkers, Dragoons, Armys, a Navy and a Remington ( till I bent it).

Mike

 

[Pete453]

Wow, MedicMike,
Your first paragraph nailed it!

Here's a thought; we've kicked this back and forth till we're all blue in the face, yet it's come up again and we're going back and forth again. Damn opinionated old guys...
Does anyone know of slow motion video of the firing sequence of cap n ball revolvers? How about we search it out and put this topic to bed, once and for all. If none exists, does anyone here know where to find someone with the proper slow motion cameras? I can put up my 1860 army, we could shoot it with and without the arbor spacer and really see the difference. It's new enough to give an accurate test result. Anyone?

 

[M. De Land]

My goodness!! A beat up wedge is all the evidence you need of barrel movement. I've had a wedge shoot out like a watermelon seed from a Walker . . . It didn't jump out by itself!
That won't happen with an arbor of correct length . . .

Mike

Battered wedges happen from to soft a steel and folks pounding them in until they smoke !

 

[M. De Land]

Wow, MedicMike,
Your first paragraph nailed it!

Here's a thought; we've kicked this back and forth till we're all blue in the face, yet it's come up again and we're going back and forth again. Damn opinionated old guys...
Does anyone know of slow motion video of the firing sequence of cap n ball revolvers? How about we search it out and put this topic to bed, once and for all. If none exists, does anyone here know where to find someone with the proper slow motion cameras? I can put up my 1860 army, we could shoot it with and without the arbor spacer and really see the difference. It's new enough to give an accurate test result. Anyone?

I'd sure like to see if this is actually occurring but I don't see how it can be and not tie up a cylinder in a short arbor gun as the arbor end fit gap is usually more than the barrel cylinder gap.!
The bounce back to neutral so as not to leave a tell tail gap at wedge back or barrel /cylinder seems very far fetched to me.

 

[M. De Land]

I don’t normally go in for opinion posts but when in Rome. My question to you is this, do you really want to carry around some silly feeler gauge or some other type of gauge? Sure, maybe it works but what happens when you go to your property or the range or wherever, and guess what I forgot my 21st century feeler gauge!!!! What a buzz kill! I don’t know about you but I really do not enjoy shooting out of a tackle box full of instruments and gauges required to keep an already temperamental firearm going. There’s a reason that this is a 20th and 21st century problem and that is because the original guns were built as originally intended the arbor bottoms out period!

Here’s another example, say you and your buddies, Curly, Moe, and Larry go shooting. You open your super deluxe dedicated pistol box with the stands and drawers and all the fixins, you grab your 60 army all feeler spaced up after you cleaned it last time you shot. Your feeling frisky today, you load the gun with the cylinder on the gun! WOW! Then everyone commences to shooting up the saloon or (insert your LARP here). You and your band of misfits then have to reload after several near misses with the law. Uh oh what’s this? Your smoke wagon is all skinned out! Fowled beyond belief, the only option is to pause the gun play and take her down and wipe her off. After she is all cleaned and ready to go you open the drawer on your ultra deluxe pistol box and realize…….you left your feeler gauge laying on the kitchen table! You think to your self, no doubt the squaw has cleaned your fancy gauge into oblivion and it will never be seen again! Determined to get back into the fight with your desperados you smash the wedge in and get back to work. First marshal you draw down on, you go to thumb the hammer back and bang! YOUR DEAD!!!!! In all your excitement you over drove the wedge and bound the gun!! What a STROKE!! You died because you forgot your favorite set of feeler gauges! Don’t die because of feeler gauges, fix the short arbor! There is a reason the originals are still around and it’s not because they had better steel in the 1800s. It’s because they were built according to the design that allows the most strength and repeatability with out the use of a gauge to assemble the gun!

Well, like I already said , this is a simple remedy that is very accurate for a shooter with a short arbor gun that has not been end fit. As to your question of use without the feeler gauge, the gun will still function just fine without the exact depth gauge fit only needng a little bump with a screw driver handle to set it in place.
From the story you relate you don't really sound like you have much actual outdoor shooting experience or you would already know this.

 

[M. De Land]

I do not have pressure curves, but remember reading (I am not going to check for exact numbers for this dribble) LPU units in the 8k to 10k range for revolvers approximately in the good old Lyman Blackpowder Handbook. So let’s say that translates to 5k psi, as that sounds reasonable. 5k psi on a .45” diameter projectile is 2250 lbs of force pushing that projectile out of the barrel. Is that the lost ‘powder burning pressure vector’ you are looking for? I remember reading studies on the topic, but it just doesn’t seem worth the effort to do the research for this topic.

The number is irrelevant for this topic the point is were speaking of the forward pressure/momentum trying to separate barrel from arbor when the projectile contacts the forcing cone. The barrel is trying to move forward with the projectile while also trying to twist with the rotation the rifling is imparting. Where is the impetus for the barrel to move rearword? The truth is there is none !

 

[M. De Land]

Well, like I already said , this is a simple remedy that is very accurate for a shooter with a short arbor gun that has not been end fit. As to your question of use without the feeler gauge, the gun will still function just fine without the exact depth gauge fit only needng a little bump with a screw driver handle to set it in place.
From the story you relate you don't really sound like you have much actual outdoor shooting experience or you would already know this.

The number is irrelevant for this topic the point is were speaking of the forward pressure/momentum trying to separate barrel from arbor when the projectile contacts the forcing cone. The barrel is trying to move forward with the projectile while also trying to twist with the rotation the rifling is imparting. Where is the impetus for the barrel to move rearword? The truth is there is none !

 

[French Colonial]

If firing the pistol forces the barrel forward and the cylinder rearward, which it most assuredly does then the gun is setting its own cylinder gap every time it is fired.
If you had a VERY sloppy wedge you could just push the barrel forward before the first shot and EUREKA! you have just set the cylinder gap before the first shot.

For those who think the cylinder rattles around front to back an interesting experiment would be to shoot a couple of shots to dirty the barrel a little and then fire the gun without the wedge, my prediction would be the barrel will end up in the grass in front of you and the cylinder would still be on the arbor proving that the wedge is what controls cylinder gap, not a to short arbor.

But, you guys just keep trying to make a STI or Wilson Combat out of a $400.00 Pietta or Uberti.

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

Mike, regarding your posts 137 and 138 about me, I'm 76 years old and do know at least a little about Colt history, and quite a bit about American history in general.
When I asked if the govt bought Colt I was making the point that the owners of any company are the ones that make the decisions here in the U.S.A.

According to Ware's Remington book in 1862 the army was buying Colts for $14 and Remingtons for $16, sometimes as much as $20. Remington had a lot of trouble making the quantity needed but did get the price down to Colt's level after a while.

These discussions aren't worth getting personal about, or trying to insult someone.

 

[SLOTHEAD]

Hey, at least everyone got their post count up...hahahahah

I like your avatar BALLSHOOTER, I’m an ancestral Viking too!

 

[MedicMike3762]

Well, like I already said , this is a simple remedy that is very accurate for a shooter with a short arbor gun that has not been end fit. As to your question of use without the feeler gauge, the gun will still function just fine without the exact depth gauge fit only needng a little bump with a screw driver handle to set it in place.
From the story you relate you don't really sound like you have much actual outdoor shooting experience or you would already know this.

Well I can see you missed the point, of course the gun will still function! But why on earth would anyone want to have to use or carry around a set of gauges to get the gun to become “accurate for a shooter”? There are literally as many ways to fix the arbor issue as there are was to clean a muzzleloader! Many take little to no time or effort.

As for outdoor shooting experience, speak for yourself, your the one talking about using a set of gauges to make a gun “accurate for a shooter”. Either way I have to get back to working on my “outdoor shooting experience”! You have your self a good morning I know I am!

 

[45D]

The number is irrelevant for this topic the point is were speaking of the forward pressure/momentum trying to separate barrel from arbor when the projectile contacts the forcing cone. The barrel is trying to move forward with the projectile while also trying to twist with the rotation the rifling is imparting. Where is the impetus for the barrel to move rearword? The truth is there is none !

I would submit that the pressure generated to drive a ball/conical into the forcing cone is definitely relevant! Light loads do less damage than heavy loads ( that can't be hard to understand). It's why wedges (especially if they're loose) get shot out of the keyway and barrels go down range.
The twisting is mitigated by the locating pins, not the wedge.

Now, that stuff happens with loose powder and soft ball/conical.
Replace the 10- 12 K psi generated by bp with 21-23K psi generated with a much faster pressure curve (more pressure available quicker) pushing a 220gr copper coated lead bullet into the same forcing cone with a 1:16 twist rather than a 1:32 twist without any damage whatsoever or loss of specs is a testament to excellent design rather than a tool steel wedge. ( again, my wedges are factory wedges)

So, if lower pressure and soft lead can cause damage to a "horse pistol" and a much higher pressure with a much harder bullet can the fired from a "belt pistol " with no signs of wear and the only difference is a "not to design" build vs an "as designed " build would be all some would need to understand the importance of the latter.

Mike