To much is made of short arbors

[CaptainVane]

Truthfully, the number of people who can shoot a handgun really well are few compared to the internet marksmen.

 

[LongWalker]

Interesting thought not messing with the arbor, might save me some time getting my new Uberti 1860 tuned up . . . except I've done the work to know better.

I've tested more than 30 1860 Armies (originals, Belgian, Pietta, Uberti, ASM) in a Ransom Rest. One of the tests involves shooting at 100 yards, removing and returning the wedge and barrel assembly between shots (because I was really curious about the effect of a short arbor). Guns with a short arbor are consistently-less-consistent, with 10-shot groups sometimes approaching 2'. Guns with well-fit arbors usually run about 8-10", and short-arbor guns that are re-worked to correct the problem drop down into this range.

Another way the effects of a short arbor show up when testing in the Ransom is to shoot 5) 10-shot groups at 100 yards, removing and returning the wedge and barrel between each group. If the gun has a short arbor, POI will move around. Groups from a well-fit, or re-fit, gun will have a consistent POI.

 

[French Colonial]

I also find it interesting that some of the people that say you need the work get paid for doing the work. And if you paid big bucks to have it done I guess you would not say you wasted your money.

You also need to sign up for your vehicles extended warranty, send me $1,000.00 and I will fix that for you.

 

[GYJ]

I also find it interesting that some of the people that say you need the work get paid for doing the work. And if you paid big bucks to have it done I guess you would not say you wasted your money.

You also need to sign up for your vehicles extended warranty, send me $1,000.00 and I will fix that for you.

So you ignore your mechanic's advice on vehicle maintenance, just because you pay him to do it?

On the flipside, the folks unwilling to have the work done and have zero experience in doing so are always the loudest naysayers.

 

[SDSmlf]

As the short arbor from our Italian friends is becoming the new standard of excellence in design and manufacture for open top pistols, maybe it’s time to start modifying all of the original Colts by shortening their arbors so as to improve their durability and accuracy? I may hold off, but charge ahead if you must.

 

[user 54092]

The idea is once the space in front of the arbor is address the wear is mitigated because the forces that caused the wear is addressed and negated. If the gun parts are properly mated to each other there won't be the slamming on the arbor. With that short arbor, you have, in essence, a recoil issue where there isn't meant to be a recoil. Certain parts are supposed to be as if welded into one piece. The wedge is a poor substitute for a properly fitted arbor as it is of a soft metal as is the rest of the gun. Yes, I'm told it wears anyway but the rate shouldn't be as drastic as with the poor fitment between arbor and frame.
Old adage; "A stictch in time saves nine."

 

[hawkeye2]

Truthfully, the number of people who can shoot a handgun really well are few compared to the internet marksmen.

That should get things started.

So... as the wedge and its mating surfaces wear to you continue to add shims?

Different items here. If the arbor length is correct wear of the wedge and its mating surfaces will have no effect on that. Wear distributed between the wedge and the mating surfaces in the arbor slot and barrel lug are self correcting. As they wear the wedge will progressively go deeper into the slot. No additional shims in the arbor hole are required for this situation.

 

[M. De Land]

So you ignore your mechanic's advice on vehicle maintenance, just because you pay him to do it?

On the flipside, the folks unwilling to have the work done and have zero experience in doing so are always the loudest naysayers.

And then there is the naysayer who actually does the work and has a contrary opinion !
Does any one remember the video of the Hungarian guy who keeps rapping the wedge ( probably loose fitting) on his 51 which apparently has a short arbor and the accuracy he was getting at 100 meters.
I can't imagine a more inconsistent means of wedge depth adjustment but apparently he felt it was necessary and who can question the result.
I completely agree that accuracy, function and perhaps longevity can be improved by tuning these revolvers as I make these mods as well. What I don't agree with is that factory short arbor guns are inaccurate and will self destruct if left in factory configuration without tuning.

 

[M. De Land]

Finally!!!

Thank you ,I did mean drivel instead of dribble but it's apparent every one caught the meaning which is the intent !
Actually dribble is a pretty good description of this perpetual drivel !

 

[B P Arn]

Thank you ,I did mean drivel instead of dribble but it's apparent every one caught the meaning which is the intent !
Actually dribble is a pretty good description of this perpetual drivel !

I knew what you meant! Been there, done that!

 

[M. De Land]

So you ignore your mechanic's advice on vehicle maintenance, just because you pay him to do it?

On the flipside, the folks unwilling to have the work done and have zero experience in doing so are always the loudest naysayers.

Auto repair shops routinely fleece people for replacement parts they don't need! The trick is to gain enough knowledge and experience or know some one you trust who has, to know what is needed and what is not.

 

[French Colonial]

I bought an 1851 Uberti from Dixie Gun Works a year or so ago only because after doing some research I discovered that is what my Great grandfather carried in the civil war. Really not the time period that interests me but did it for nostalgia.

I really have not fired it all that much I will admit as I am a flintlock guy but the darned thing is pretty accurate and with the rudimentary sights that are on it at 25 yards I have been impressed. It indexes just fine and the trigger is good so if I can ever wear it out (which I doubt) I will worry about sending it off to have it tuned up.

But more than likely I will just shoot it occasionally and be happy with it as is.

I have a friend that has hundreds of guns (yes hundreds) and I swear he has to tweak every one of them when he buys them, shorten the barrel, send it off to have this or that done etc. etc. they are his and it makes him happy.

 

[French Colonial]

So you ignore your mechanic's advice on vehicle maintenance, just because you pay him to do it?

On the flipside, the folks unwilling to have the work done and have zero experience in doing so are always the loudest naysayers.

Actually I have more knowledge about cars than most of the youngsters in my local dealership who have never rebuilt an engine or kept one going with baling wire and duct tape back when I was poor.
And there are only a few I would trust implicitly.

 

[Gun Tramp]

Likely several hundred posts on this subject in various threads by now. Still have not heard from anyone who has taken the time to ask Uberti/Benelli/Beretta why their arbors are short. Nobody. Meantime, I still shoot an 1851 Uberti that works fine and is as accurate as any handgun I own. Really don't care about the short arbor. Of note, when Zonie moderated here it was universally agreed that the wedge is properly installed by thumb pressure alone. No tapping recommended. The Uberti instruction manual simply says "reassemble."

 

[Relic shooter]

Tried to ignore this … can’t!!!!

what bothers me most is the notion that a Colt replica can have a short arbor and someone would consider this as “FINE”

anybody that examines the original article will find the arbor to be “JUST RIGHT unless it has been modified . These original Colts were produced to fit perfectly EVERY TIME disassembly reassembly occurred. They were built for quality and fit n finish which makes them stand the vigors of life when care was not to spiffy in most circles.

I do not understand [respectfully] how the cylinder gap and height of the front sight can reasonably be ignored as a result of improper wedge tightening without a solid marrying of the end hole and arbor fit each and every time Perfectly and being tight up against each other every time.

Engineering conflicts with the notion that in a firearm there can be a tolerant acceptance of several thousandths of an inch every time reassembly occurs.

the US gouvernment did NOT provide a feeler gauge to every soldier that was issued a 51 or a 60 Colts revolver I gaurentee.

DRIBBLE indeed. Any engineers in the house that care to weigh in on this … PLEASE?

The arbors on all of the original C&B Colt revolvers that I've owned & shot had the correct length arbors from the factory so no feeler gauges were necessary.
Civil war factory inspectors made sure the cylinder gap & all specs were correct & consistent to produce good accuracy & easier takedown for the troops..
Just opinion from an old guy who has been collecting & shooting original firearms for several decades.
Relic shooter

 

[45D]

Likely several hundred posts on this subject in various threads by now. Still have not heard from anyone who has taken the time to ask Uberti/Benelli/Beretta why their arbors are short. Nobody. Meantime, I still shoot an 1851 Uberti that works fine and is as accurate as any handgun I own. Really don't care about the short arbor. Of note, when Zonie moderated here it was universally agreed that the wedge is properly installed by thumb pressure alone. No tapping recommended. The Uberti instruction manual simply says "reassemble."

Probably the same reason no other manufacturers did either!! That includes Pietta until recently. They wanted to make a buck while the "Iron was hot" ( Centennial). They just "copied" (reverse engineered - the engineering) without understanding what the physics is behind the design.

As far as "universal agreement" ha!!!!
If we "universally agreed the Sun is cold, it wouldn't make it so!!!

COLTS instructions say to "drive the wedge in / drive the wedge out".

You and others may not care about the short arbor and that's fine, but at least you know why your "copy" isn't a true copy. And when it gets loose or less impressive with accuracy, you'll know why.

Mike

 

[Rich44]

I just find it impossible to understand. Why would anybody want to have a short arbor in a open top revolver. Mechanically it just is not correct, And the only reason for building that way is poor engineering and cost cutting. With a proper fitting cylinder gap and barrel resting on arbor the wedge gives tremendous pressure on the parts with just a tap fit in. There is no need to beat on the wedge, wearing it out. Realize plenty of open tops are working with short arbors, but why would you not want your revolver to be built correctly if possible. Same for the timing, why would you defend a revolver being out of time. They work better when tuned if necessary.

 

[64Springer]

Hand fitting costs money.

I looked at my two Colt pieces this afternoon. A Navy and a Dragoon. About a 1/16th inch gap on both.

You're talking about .001/.002 gap between the end of the arbor and the bottom of the arbor hole. Pull a hair out of your head, divide the thickness by three and that's the gap being discussed here.

It would require that kind of precision fitting to maintain the correct cylinder end gap time and time again.

Who's going to pay for that kind of precision coming out of a factory that's sole goal is to crank out as many reproduction revolvers as fast as it can.

People buy these revolvers because they're cheap. Hand fitting makes them no longer cheap. Hell, simply deburring them makes them no longer cheap.

I suppose they could put out long arbor models. So the owner can painstakingly fit his arbor to his barrel. But then you'd have to pay people to make sure the arbors are long.

 

[Ballshooter]

Truthfully, the number of people who can shoot a handgun really well are few compared to the internet marksmen.

That should get things started.

I must be one of the few...I am ambidextrous and can shoot accurate with either hand.I practice one to two days a week now. Years ago I was pretty good in uspsa shooting. Back then I shot three to five days a week. I went through thousands of rounds a week. Then I got married hahahah. I like to be proficient so I try to stay in tune.

 

[Pete453]

I am just a dumb red neck but if the arbor doesn't bottom out the wedge will move the barrel it will also change cylinder gap as well as rise the POI. Sure you can shoot it with a short arbor and can be accurate if you pay attention to the wedge, but good luck getting it the same every time! If the arbor is short the wedge determines many things as stated above, If the arbor bottoms out it only does one thing...
"Holds the barrel"

This is true, what's missing is that the wedge must have something solid on both sides to push(wedge) against so that it can tighten up. If the arbor is short, the only thing holding the barrel side firm for the wedge to push against and lock is the front of the cylinder, which needs to move. So the arbor is in effect, loose, it's not doing much. When fired, the barrel assembly won't be pushed forward and stay there, it will rattle back and forth. The cylinder should be "floating" between the barrel and standing breech, which should be locked together into a solid, it's not a supporting member.